Movement

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Can't look at a map (am currently on a business trip) but spent a
couple more minutes with the list, visualizing how bad things are
for me.  I can't stop either you or Jamie from taking Marseilles,
I don't think.  Ankara is dead.  Rome is dead.  Naples is dead.
That leaves me Tunis.  Wow.  One SC.  If you leave me Marseilles,
(though I'm not sure how you could guarantee that) and give me one
more SC, or if you let me into Spain (which you COULD guarantee) and
give me one more SC, I'll have a decent SC base (three), giving you
three fleets that are WAY forward for you and that have the single-minded
purpose of trying to re-take the Italian boot.

I think this is a good deal for you.  You can afford to remove the
Liverpool army, if what I'm proposing makes you remove something.
What you let me have will ve VERY re-takeable, though, so it's not
even a loss that you would feel.  I'm basically saying that Jamie
and Dave could kill me now, so my best move is to ask for my life
>from you and agree to submit myself to a position where YOU could
kill me whenever the mood strikes.  Even if it extends my game only
a couple more years -- because, let's say, God forbid, that you do
decide to take me out -- I'll at least have played a better game.
You, in the meantime, will have gotten my aid in your own cause.

Trouble is, there are upsides for you no matter what.  If you DO give
me a couple SC's to keep my fleets alive, they work for you, you can
advance east, etc., etc.  If you DON'T give them to me, I die, and the
A/I/R coalition shuffles its units, taking three from the western
front and converting them into builds WAY back far away from you.  You
still come out smelling like roses.

So, looking at it this way, I can further improve my bargaining position,
such as it is, and can increase the chances you will agree to my appeal
(though I am hopeful that the chances are already good enough and that you
are finding yourself in agreement to the plan to basically prop up an
Italian navy to immediately attack a common A/R enemy).  And I'd be remiss in
my diplomatic duties by NOT improving my position.  So I'll tell you that if
you do not help me, my removes will be pro-A/R and I'll pester you to my
last breath.  Yes, I might not have *much* of a last breath, but I
will also go to A/R and plead similarly that they leave me Tunis and I'll
pledge to them that if they do, my remaining fleet will be anti-England
until however the game ends for me.  I imagine that they will accept this
(Jamie, certainly will, and I believe he will convince Dave).  Meantime,
they're about to  get a lot of new builds in the east and south to use to bust
through your lines there.  The prospect of keeping pressure on both their
fronts against you is probably going to be pretty convincing.

So I have to hope that you will see all this as extra (hopefully unneeded)
incentive to come down in favor of my proposal.  I'll do all I can to hope
to convince you.  Because if you are unconvinced, I'm pretty much dead, though
I will naturally then beg for Tunis and a puppet fleet to string itself up on
A/R strings.  I hope you grab the strings I'm tying on myself first, though,
while I still have a fair number of fleets to act as marionettes.  If you
don't, I'll have but one, and it'll be run by the opposition.

Hoping our interests lie together, I look forward to hearing from you....

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

I'm in basic agreement with your proposal (although adding your threat
as an "incentive" almost blew it for you...).  I'll figure out some
basic details when I get home in the morning.

Cal

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>
>Wow, dramatic.


Told ya... 

>>Can we work together now?
>
>I think so. But I have to assess the total situation. I mean, next time I
>stab Austria, I'd better be prepared to finish the job, don't you think? He
>won't forgive me twice.


I understand, but I need to see something soon.  I can't afford to give up
too much ground if you're not going to keep your end of the bargain.

>>BTW, is the move to Rome the precursor of an Austrian stab?
>>Or do you know?
>
>Oh, well, it would certainly appear that way.
>Of course, that might just be what he *wants* you to think. ;-)


Well, naturally this occured to me, even though Manus immediately
wrote me three long letters promising me the sun, moon, stars and
the USS Enterprise D if I would help him out against the Infidels.

I guess this next turn will tell.  (Funny, this game, it seems as if EVERY
turn is a critical one)

Cal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

I've had a chance to look at the board (the Net Mapper link from the Pouch
is a wonderful thing!) and I've decided to do as much as I can to accept
your offer.  You do stand to lose Ven & Nap as well as Rome, but I think I
can make sure you don't lose more than one fleet.

How about this:  you keep Mar & Tun and I give you Paris.  That will
ensure that you keep at least three fleets on the front. Since Dave only
has that single fleet, I think you might even make enough enough of a dent
that you'll get the revenge you want.

I think that, regardless of whatever else happens, if you're really
willing to puppet, we will be able give both Dave and Jamie a lot to
think about.  Assuming I'm right, you'll almost be guaranteed a survival.
I'll certainly promise to do MY best to see that you not only achieve
that, but you also finish ahead of Dave.  Fair enough?

Here's what I would like you to if the offer is still open:

A Pic-Par
F Wes-Tun
F Naf s F Wes-Tun
F Mar s F Spasc-Lyo
F Tus-wherever (Rome? Piedmont?)

Can you live with these?  (Well, that's a double edged question- your
chances of living ARE certainly enhanced...

Later,

Cal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> I'm in basic agreement with your proposal
>
Whew!  (Sorry to have been delayed in responding -- travelled all day
yesterday and didn't check e-mail.)

> (although adding your threat
> as an "incentive" almost blew it for you...).
>
Frankly, I was afraid of that.  Had to help my cause however I could, but
since we're in basic agreement, just consider the "threat" rescinded.

> I'll figure out some
> basic details when I get home in the morning.
>
Great!

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie:

Okay, my little plan has worked.  Cal has written me, offering to leave
me Marseilles and to give me Paris.  As long as you and Dave don't kill
me (as Cal expects you to do), I will get a build.  Yes, Paris can't
be held, but I'm hoping that this turn we can do some damage to him since he
thinks we're at each other's throats.  If, at the end of the turn, he
sees not only the three of us still together, but him shrinking and
another Italian unit put on the board to go anti-E, we might have turned
the tide somewhat.

I'm writing you to ask if you think Dave won't care and will kill me anyway.
I haven't heard from him in response to my mails to him since the moves.

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> I've had a chance to look at the board (the Net Mapper link from the Pouch
> is a wonderful thing!) and I've decided to do as much as I can to accept
> your offer.  You do stand to lose Ven & Nap as well as Rome, but I think I
> can make sure you don't lose more than one fleet.
>
I imagine I don't need to tell you how much I appreciate this.

> Here's what I would like you to if the offer is still open:
>
The offer is most definitely still open.  I will look at the map and
confirm.  It's a go.

Sorry so short -- busy busy at work.  First day back and all....

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Oh, one more thing I should tell you.  I'm doing my best begging-for-my-life
routine with Jamie and Dave, but (not surprisingly) haven't heard anything
good from them since the moves.  Nothing at all from Dave, and from Jamie,
nothing but a request that I should hunt up one good reason why they should
keep me alive.

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Taking Paris sounds great to me. If I can hold Kiel, then we strip Cal of
three centers. That might be enough to make a big difference. I think he
probably can't hold out against a concerted effort if he loses three
centers.

I think I have heard from Dave since the moves, but not much. He was happy
to see you did what you said you'd do. I don't know what his plans are.
I'll tell him my feelings.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Taking Paris sounds great to me.
>
It won't be for long, but it will make him pull some units.  If he
sees that I am NOT sending everything I have against you while he gives
me centers, the tide might have turned.

> If I can hold Kiel, then we strip Cal of
> three centers. That might be enough to make a big difference.
>
Well, I hope so.  They I'll have felt like I contributed.

> I think he probably can't hold out against a concerted effort if he loses
> three centers.
>
That's the idea....

> I think I have heard from Dave since the moves, but not much. He was happy
> to see you did what you said you'd do. I don't know what his plans are.
> I'll tell him my feelings.
>
I hope your feelings include that he should get out of Rome and avoid Tunis
and Naples, and that you will avoid Ankara.  My biggest fear, of course, now
that I've put myself out here on a limb, is that someone will contact Cal
and say, "he's only asking for Paris because he's about to hit you and
he thinks we're leaving him alone.  Let's all just screw him and get it over
with."  That's why I even thought twice before telling you that Pic-Par
is coming and should succeed.  But you said you thought it best if I showed
Dave that there's a reason why I should live.  Here it is, but I'm afraid
to tell him, so I tell you instead.  Sheesh.

Gotta run.  Busy busy on my first day back in the office.

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

So, Manus says that Cal has offered him Paris, and also to let him keep
Marseilles, apparently with the idea that we are obviously going to stab
Manus now and Cal would like to take him on board as an ally.

My gut feeling is that we still ought to eliminate Manus. Here is the
reason we might prefer not to.

Manus cannot really help break through the British lines. Even if he gets
Paris, he can't hold it. So in a way, he can't really help us.
But, although he can't break through as things stand, it's also true that
as things stand Cal has to commit a substantial force to preventing him
>from breaking through. I'm not sure what happens here if Cal has to remove
*three* units. (One for Mun, one for Kie, one for Par.) It looks like he
gets kind of thin in the Scand area if he keeps a lot of support for MAO
and Spa and also uses armies to retake Paris.

I am inclined to try to be really aggressive up north. The only hitch is
that this might conceivably leave you without much to do. I figure my only
serious options are (1) to eliminate Manus and take a 3-way, or (2) to go
all-out against Cal and see if we can turn it into an ending that one of us
will win. But clearly you aren't going to go for this second option if it
leaves you trailing me significantly in supply center count. (I have a
feeling that this is what Cal is counting on, as a matter of fact --
letting me turn into the new leader and drawing the gang-up attention once
more, leaving him with one more shot at a solo.)

Leaving Italy alive to help us sort of aggravates the basic problem. It
leaves you a little smaller, and Cal a little weaker, and me a scarier
'leader' (if I ever do get the lead by stealing English centers).

So, what do you think?

Hm, as to immediate tactics:
I think maybe Cal will attempt to destroy my only northern fleet. He could
do it if he didn't mind leaving Belgium open for Manus to waltz into. You
see what I mean? I don't see that I or we can do anything about that. Even
Mun-Ruh doesn't prevent it. (But probably that's what we should do anyway.
It looks like a good move. You might help save Kie for me, and if not, if
say Den S Ruh-Kie, you could get into Ruh and Boh-Mun would still succeed.)
That would be a drag. For me, anyway. Also, I just have to guess if I want
to leave Stp open. Maybe F Nwy goes to Stp, maybe it doesn't. I think I'll
order Stp-Fin, Mos-Stp. Then if he *does* go Nwy-Stp, I can build F Stp(nc)
and take Norway, or I could build F Stp(sc) and probably take Norway next
year anyway. And if he doesn't order Nwy-Stp, I still have Mos plus Fin
against Nwy for the Spring.

Anyway, let's here your take on all of this.

Tsar J

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Oh, one more thing I should tell you.  I'm doing my best
begging-for-my-life
>routine with Jamie and Dave, but (not surprisingly) haven't heard anything
>good from them since the moves.  Nothing at all from Dave, and from Jamie,
>nothing but a request that I should hunt up one good reason why they should
>keep me alive.


I think, if you agree with the moves I'm suggesting, we'll give them LOTS
of reasons they should have chosen a different course of action... 

Cal

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> So, Manus says that Cal has offered him Paris, and also to let him keep
> Marseilles, apparently with the idea that we are obviously going to stab
> Manus now and Cal would like to take him on board as an ally.
>
Keep Marseille?  What say does he have in the matter?  Give him Paris?
I don't really think so (<:

> My gut feeling is that we still ought to eliminate Manus. Here is the
> reason we might prefer not to.
>
> Manus cannot really help break through the British lines. Even if he gets
> Paris, he can't hold it. So in a way, he can't really help us.
> But, although he can't break through as things stand, it's also true that
> as things stand Cal has to commit a substantial force to preventing him
> from breaking through. I'm not sure what happens here if Cal has to remove
> *three* units. (One for Mun, one for Kie, one for Par.) It looks like he
> gets kind of thin in the Scand area if he keeps a lot of support for MAO
> and Spa and also uses armies to retake Paris.
>
> I am inclined to try to be really aggressive up north. The only hitch is
> that this might conceivably leave you without much to do. I figure my only
> serious options are (1) to eliminate Manus and take a 3-way, or (2) to go
> all-out against Cal and see if we can turn it into an ending that one of us
> will win. But clearly you aren't going to go for this second option if it
> leaves you trailing me significantly in supply center count. (I have a
> feeling that this is what Cal is counting on, as a matter of fact --
> letting me turn into the new leader and drawing the gang-up attention once
> more, leaving him with one more shot at a solo.)
>
> Leaving Italy alive to help us sort of aggravates the basic problem. It
> leaves you a little smaller, and Cal a little weaker, and me a scarier
> 'leader' (if I ever do get the lead by stealing English centers).
>
> So, what do you think?
>
I think that we might as well remove Manus at this time.  Sooner or later
he is going to turn back which will give Cal more opportunities.  We
might not be able to break Cal with him gone, but Cal can't break us
either, and it is going to take a little while for him to really go away,
assuming that Cal doesn't prop him up!

If Manus does go away, then there are some possibilities.  Cal is weak
on armies (probably why he built that extra one).  I can't break through
Gib with armies, but if you are pushing in Scandinavia and I am pushing
in the middle, we can make him lose enough centers that he can't hold
both lines.  The key of course is keeping you active in the north.

> Hm, as to immediate tactics:
> I think maybe Cal will attempt to destroy my only northern fleet. He could
> do it if he didn't mind leaving Belgium open for Manus to waltz into. You
> see what I mean? I don't see that I or we can do anything about that. Even
> Mun-Ruh doesn't prevent it. (But probably that's what we should do anyway.
> It looks like a good move. You might help save Kie for me, and if not, if
> say Den S Ruh-Kie, you could get into Ruh and Boh-Mun would still succeed.)
> That would be a drag. For me, anyway. Also, I just have to guess if I want
> to leave Stp open. Maybe F Nwy goes to Stp, maybe it doesn't. I think I'll
> order Stp-Fin, Mos-Stp. Then if he *does* go Nwy-Stp, I can build F Stp(nc)
> and take Norway, or I could build F Stp(sc) and probably take Norway next
> year anyway. And if he doesn't order Nwy-Stp, I still have Mos plus Fin
> against Nwy for the Spring.
>
He might try to kill the fleet, but it does leave him out of position.  I
agree that Mun - Ruh is the correct move and will order that.

In the north I'm less certain.  I had hoped you would move War - Pru
instead of Livonia, thus giving you the option of the bounce in Stp. I
think you should consider NOT moving Mos - Stp.  Cal has only fleet
Norway up there right now.  If he does not move to Stp, then you get to
build a fleet.  If you move Stp - Fin, War - Lvn, Mos hold, then even if
he does go into Stp, you can easily retake it the next year.  In fact, you
can force the fleet to retreat to Barents, leaving you two units on
Norway.  That might be worth the gamble.  The other option is go send
Mos - Stp hoping for the bounce.  Hard to say which will work.  Either way,
you need to put a unit in Livonia for the bounce next year.

As for Manus, I'm not sure what we should have him try.  I'm concerned he'll
want me to go to Gol instead of him.  I'm also not sure about Pic.  Paris
would be a plus, but Belgium also has it's points, assuming we want him
to take a center from Cal!

I'll have to see if I can get any inkling what Cal is up to.  Probably not
knowing him!  Anyway Cal would support you to Mar?

Kaiser D

Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

> Jamie suggests that I might ask you to let me know if you need me
> to explain to you why I'd prove better off alive than dead....
>
You mean other than the large English navy and the fact that the
combined R/A fleets couldn't control a duck pond, much less the
Med? (<:

I didn't scramble back this far to let Cal walk away with a win,
or Jamie either for that matter!

Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':

Hello there,

Well, I'm feeling a bit left out.  Here I am taking the first tottering
steps towards making something happen and you're sending lots of
interesting proposals to everyone, but not a word to me.  *sniff*
(The security around here makes Ken Starr's office look like the
Sphinx!).

As I've said before, I don't like large draws much at all, but I like
my opponents winning even less.  I think we can make some things happen
here, but it would certainly help from my point of view to see you
concentrating more on the north than the med.  With a little coordination
here we can remove Manus from the picture in the next year or so, the
question is how do we go beyond that.  I know you don't want to, and won't
give up your stalemate line in the MAO, so how do you think we can go
about removing Russia in a manner that doesn't make an English win a
foregone conclusion?

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>Keep Marseille?  What say does he have in the matter?  Give him Paris?
>I don't really think so (<:

Well, maybe allow him to keep Mar even if (a) bad old Austria takes all the
Italian home centers, and (b) Italy sails away from Mar to try to punish
bad old Austria.

You don't think Cal is sincere? I really don't know.


>I think that we might as well remove Manus at this time.

Ok. I'd just as soon trust my instincts about this one anyway, and that's
what my instincts tell me.

>If Manus does go away, then there are some possibilities.  Cal is weak
>on armies (probably why he built that extra one).  I can't break through
>Gib with armies, but if you are pushing in Scandinavia and I am pushing
>in the middle, we can make him lose enough centers that he can't hold
>both lines.  The key of course is keeping you active in the north.

Yeah, true. Ok.


>He might try to kill the fleet, but it does leave him out of position.  I
>agree that Mun - Ruh is the correct move and will order that.

Ok.
So I'll order Sil S Boh-Mun.

>In the north I'm less certain.  I had hoped you would move War - Pru
>instead of Livonia, thus giving you the option of the bounce in Stp.

Ah. Yes, good point.
I've forgotten why I did it the other way. I know there was a good reason.

>think you should consider NOT moving Mos - Stp.  Cal has only fleet
>Norway up there right now.  If he does not move to Stp, then you get to
>build a fleet.  If you move Stp - Fin, War - Lvn, Mos hold, then even if
>he does go into Stp, you can easily retake it the next year.  In fact, you
>can force the fleet to retreat to Barents, leaving you two units on
>Norway.  That might be worth the gamble.

Sure.
I agree.
It's just that, well, it's a guess. My hunch is that Cal will order
Nwy-Stp, since there is nothing else to do with the F Nwy, and most people
don't like to let units sit idle. But he could very well have it hold.
My point was that if I *don't* cover Stp and I've guessed wrong, then I
have to retake Stp next year; but if I *do* cover Stp and I've guessed
wrong, then I get to snatch Norway next year.


>As for Manus, I'm not sure what we should have him try.  I'm concerned he'll
>want me to go to Gol instead of him.

Oh, who cares? ;-)

>  I'm also not sure about Pic.  Paris
>would be a plus, but Belgium also has it's points, assuming we want him
>to take a center from Cal!

I think we do. And I think it probably doesn't matter which one, since
after this coming season Manus is no longer going to challenge Cal at all,
whatever centers he takes will be centers that Cal can have back
immediately, or leave with Manus to supply the 'advanced guard' that
Manus's forces will constitute from Cal's point of view.

>Anyway Cal would support you to Mar?

Umm.
Good question. Probably not.

Shall I ask? It would tip my hand.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> You don't think Cal is sincere? I really don't know.
>
If we had nailed Manus really hard I'd believe it.  But I have some
trouble seeing him giving up Paris now when he doesn't need to.  I
think he'll make sure he retakes Kie, but two disbands would still
hurt.

>
> >I think that we might as well remove Manus at this time.
>
> Ok. I'd just as soon trust my instincts about this one anyway, and that's
> what my instincts tell me.
>
Mine as well.

> >He might try to kill the fleet, but it does leave him out of position.  I
> >agree that Mun - Ruh is the correct move and will order that.
>
> Ok.
> So I'll order Sil S Boh-Mun.
>
Guess so, I don't see anything better for it to do.


> I agree.
> It's just that, well, it's a guess. My hunch is that Cal will order
> Nwy-Stp, since there is nothing else to do with the F Nwy, and most people
> don't like to let units sit idle. But he could very well have it hold.
> My point was that if I *don't* cover Stp and I've guessed wrong, then I
> have to retake Stp next year; but if I *do* cover Stp and I've guessed
> wrong, then I get to snatch Norway next year.
>
Yes, I agree, it is a guess.  Just wanted to make sure you were considering
both.

>
> >As for Manus, I'm not sure what we should have him try.  I'm concerned he'll
> >want me to go to Gol instead of him.
>
> Oh, who cares? ;-)
>
*grin*

> >  I'm also not sure about Pic.  Paris
> >would be a plus, but Belgium also has it's points, assuming we want him
> >to take a center from Cal!
>
> I think we do. And I think it probably doesn't matter which one, since
> after this coming season Manus is no longer going to challenge Cal at all,
> whatever centers he takes will be centers that Cal can have back
> immediately, or leave with Manus to supply the 'advanced guard' that
> Manus's forces will constitute from Cal's point of view.
>
True.  Guess we'll all have to see what Cal has to say, then take our
best guess.

> >Anyway Cal would support you to Mar?
>
> Umm.
> Good question. Probably not.
>
> Shall I ask? It would tip my hand.
>
How so?  Manus has asked us to try and convince Cal we are attacking him,
so there's nothing to worry about there.  However, now that I think about
it, I'm not sure it's worth asking because you don't want to risk not
supporting Manus and having Cal take Mar.

I think we go with it and see what shakes out.  If Manus can grab a
center great, if not, oh well.  I think we can convince Cal to finish
him off if we decide on the three way, and before that maybe we can
even use him somehow if he's still around.

Kaiser D

Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>
>Hello there,
>
>Well, I'm feeling a bit left out.  Here I am taking the first tottering
>steps towards making something happen and you're sending lots of
>interesting proposals to everyone, but not a word to me.  *sniff*
>(The security around here makes Ken Starr's office look like the
>Sphinx!).


Better check their accuracy.  I wrote VERY short notes to Jamie & Manus
before my limited time ran out.  Work is being a killer.

>As I've said before, I don't like large draws much at all, but I like
>my opponents winning even less.  I think we can make some things happen
>here, but it would certainly help from my point of view to see you
>concentrating more on the north than the med.  With a little coordination
>here we can remove Manus from the picture in the next year or so, the
>question is how do we go beyond that.  I know you don't want to, and won't
>give up your stalemate line in the MAO, so how do you think we can go
>about removing Russia in a manner that doesn't make an English win a
>foregone conclusion?


The best way is for you to take Manus out quickly while I dance as fast as
I can in the north.  I'm not in a position to do more than LOSE a couple of
units in the next year or so, which means that an English win shouldn't be
a real concern to you.  Once you have the Italian centres, a coordinated
attack on the Big Bear shouldn't be very hard.

Comments?

Cal

Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Better check their accuracy.  I wrote VERY short notes to Jamie & Manus
> before my limited time ran out.  Work is being a killer.
>
I know that feeling

> The best way is for you to take Manus out quickly while I dance as fast as
> I can in the north.  I'm not in a position to do more than LOSE a couple of
> units in the next year or so, which means that an English win shouldn't be
> a real concern to you.  Once you have the Italian centres, a coordinated
> attack on the Big Bear shouldn't be very hard.
>
> Comments?
>
I certainly don't fear an English win in the short run.  Finding a way to
take out Russia without causing one is another matter.  My concern is more
how you react to the demise of Italy.  I can see three main paths,
you prop up his remnants and attempt to use them against me, you push
hard to fill in the void with your own units or you keep your stable
line and let me pick up the pieces.  Obviously I prefer door #3.

Dave

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

Okay, boys.  With Cal playing the "they are stabbing you; I will help you"
game, we could have a good turn coming tomorrow.  I was about to spend some
quality time planning, but just got called to a client site.  Lovely.  :-(

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Ok, so I'll have A Sil S A Boh-Mun (though it doesn't appear that you'll
need that, I may as well since I have nothing else to do with the A Sil).

You'll have A Mun-Ruh, trying to protect my F Kie.

I'll take a guess to leave Stp open.

I'll take Ankara, and I'll still have my A Pie S ITAL F Mar

You'll hold in Rome, take Naples with the fleet(?), and move Tri-Ven. Seems
like the best thing.

You know what would just be a shame, would be if Manus jumped into TyS and
Tun! Yike. You don't think he'll do that, do you?? As a safety play, maybe
you should order TyS-Tun?  Then Manus cannot get two fleets bordering on
Ion. So, let's see. He might (I know this is very unlikely, but I'm just
trying to see if we have an absolutely safe play here) order

Naf-Tun, Tus S Wes-TyS

and you'd just retreat to Nap. Then Nap-Ion and Tri-Adr next year, with
another army or two crawling into the Boot, and it's all tight.

Or he might order

Naf -Tun, Wes S Naf-Tun, Tus-TyS

and still you could order Tys-Ion, Tri-Adr next Spring with an army taking
Naples.

I know it seems messier to leave Italy with Naples this year, but if Manus
*doesn't* try to occupy Tys then there is no problem in any case, and if he
does, well, it really would be too bad to leave little holes that might
allow a British victory.

Anyway, besides that we're all set, and I can just leave that part to you.

Hm. What if F Tus S F Mar-Pie?? Do we run into any real trouble if enemy
*fleets* occupy Tus and Pie??

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in

'pouchtoo':

Well, the first question is, which one of you is going to go to GoL? I
suggest the ITAL F Tus, since that is a very useless position for a fleet,
Tuscany is. But I leave that to you two.

Second, what are you going to do with this small opportunity, Manus? I
think it's probably a good time to try either Wes S Naf-MAO or Mar S
Wes-Spa. Although Cal has enough support for both, it sort of looks like he
will want to use the F Eng to convoy. So you might try Naf S Wes-MAO,
Pic-Bre, expecting Por S Spa and MAO underprotected. Then you'd have to
order Mar-Spa too, or there is no real point (Cal would certainly have F
Spa S MAO). That would leave Mar vulnerable, admittedly, but Dave could
have Mun-Bur to protect Mar.

None of this matters to my moves. I will have A Pie S Mar anyway, with
nothing for that army to do.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>I understand, but I need to see something soon.  I can't afford to give up
>too much ground if you're not going to keep your end of the bargain.

There is no 'bargain'. Just for the record.

I'm not going to stab Dave when he could very easily throw the game to you,
as he could right now. If that means we have to settle for a
great-than-two-way draw, then that's just how it will have to be.

I will do *something* very soon, though, I promise. Something besides the
same old boring 'carefully hold the line against England' stuff, I mean.

>I guess this next turn will tell.  (Funny, this game, it seems as if EVERY
>turn is a critical one)

Yeah, but then usually it turns out that they weren't. ;-)

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia and Italy in

'pouchtoo':


I have to leave today at 1:00, so I'll be sending in orders before then.
For the moment I have submitted:  Mun - Bur, Tys s Tus - Gol.
If for some reason this is incorrect, please let me know!

Kaiser D

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

I will try real hard to get out some press before Dave has to leave.
Unfortunately, I am fighting a fire at work right now or I'd do it
right away.

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Here's what I would like you to if the offer is still open:
>
> A Pic-Par
> F Wes-Tun
> F Naf s F Wes-Tun
> F Mar s F Spasc-Lyo
> F Tus-wherever (Rome? Piedmont?)
>
Got it.  Am (finally) getting to work on the game and going through mail.

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie:

Cal is proposing my moves be as follows:

Pic-Par (yep!)
Wes-Tun with NAf support
Mar S Spa/sc - LYO
Tus-wherever

Your comments on this?  It seems like he will be doing MAO-WES.
Do you think we have a chance to break through or should I be happy
with denying him LYO and taking Paris and keeping Marseilles?

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Only really you'll order Mun-Ruh. Right?

Tsar J

>Message from [email protected] as Austria to Russia and Italy in
>'pouchtoo':
>
>
>I have to leave today at 1:00, so I'll be sending in orders before then.
>For the moment I have submitted:  Mun - Bur, Tys s Tus - Gol.
>If for some reason this is incorrect, please let me know!
>
>Kaiser D

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Only really you'll order Mun-Ruh. Right?
>
I'm ordering Mun - Bur just like I'm ordering Tys s Tus - Gol! (<:

Really Mun - Ruh.

Gotta run.  Should be interesting.

Kaiser D

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

If I were Cal, I would be doing:
   Bur-Mar
   Spa/sc-LYO (hoping for my support)
   Por S MAO-Spa/sc
   Bre S ENG-MAO (or vice versa)

I don't know what we can do against that other than deny him LYO and
me take Paris.  Unless you see something I don't, we can't get Spain
or MAO.

Any ideas for a surprise way to take advantage of his largesse, to where
we might get more than he expected (other than LYO) on this turn?

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

Cal wants me to do:

Pic-Par
Mar S Spa/sc-LYO
NAf S WES-Tun

I don't think he'll hit Marseilles since it would cut his own support,
so I think we might have a chance at Mar S WES-Spa/sc.

The hope is that he is trusting me to vacate WES and he'll try for
MAO-WES.  If instead he wants to send MAO or Por to Spain with support
>from the other, it'll be a bounce, but this is the best I can come up with:

NAf-WES
WES-Spa/sc
Mar S WES-Spa/sc
Tus-LYO
Pic-Par

See anything with a better chance of success?

I'm putting my orders in now along these lines, and with a SET WAIT.

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>If I were Cal, I would be doing:
>   Bur-Mar
>   Spa/sc-LYO (hoping for my support)
>   Por S MAO-Spa/sc
>   Bre S ENG-MAO (or vice versa)

He could do that. But he's got that army in Wales. He really wants to
convoy it.

Personally, I think I would try for MAO if I were you. But you could also
try for Spa. I don't remember whether I had any very good reason for
preferring Wes-MAO.

If you really think he's going to give you Par, then of course you must
take it.  I have my doubts, but you are probably in a better position to
assess his sincerity. If you have serious doubts, then do Pic-Bre.

Buon fortuna,

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> >If I were Cal, I would be doing:
> >   Bur-Mar
>
Here, I was lying.  He wants Mar to support him.  Bur won't hit it.

> >   Spa/sc-LYO (hoping for my support)
>
(For this reason.)

> >   Por S MAO-Spa/sc
>
Here, I decided he likes me enough to think he can take WES from me.
I'm hoping his moves are MAO-WES and Por-Spa/sc.

> >   Bre S ENG-MAO (or vice versa)
>
> He could do that. But he's got that army in Wales. He really wants to
> convoy it.
>
I think you're right he'll try to convoy, so probably we'll
see Bre-MAO and a convoy to Brest or Picardy.

> Personally, I think I would try for MAO if I were you. But you could also
> try for Spa. I don't remember whether I had any very good reason for
> preferring Wes-MAO.
>
My luck, MAO will probably be the one I can get, and here I am trying for
Spa.  Oh well, it's just a game.  Gotta take the chances.

> If you really think he's going to give you Par, then of course you must
> take it.
>
I really think so.  Now, of course, there's no way I can keep it for long;
Cal's not going to like me much after this turn, etc., etc.  But like I say,
it's just a game.

> I have my doubts, but you are probably in a better position to
> assess his sincerity. If you have serious doubts, then do Pic-Bre.
>
The only concern I have is that I haven't been able to send him as much
confirming press as I'd have liked to.  If he backs out of it, that will
be the reason.

> Buon fortuna,
>
Thanks.  I need it.

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':


>Got it.  Am (finally) getting to work on the game and going through mail.

Okay, good.  I've gotten letters from both Dave & Jamie which were, frankly,
quite aggressive and off-putting.  That makes me want to sweep the Med and
make them realize they're not dealing from quite the position of strength
they think they are.  Obviously, this attitude on my part is good news for
you as I will want to ensure you a) get all your home centres back and b)
push your fleets east as fast as possible with all the concomitant gains
this implies.

As for the long run, obviously I'd still like to try to win the game but, if
that isn't possible, my focus for a two-way has switched to having you as a
partner.  I think that, with the paucity of enemy fleets in the Med, our
combined forces can sweep thru with little opposition.

Comments?

Cal

Retreat

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hey, way to go!  You really suckered me!

I don't seem to be the only one though...

Cal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Well, I got screwed twice.  Here's my story, and you can punish me for
it as harshly as you want.

As I told you, I lobbied hard for Dave and Jamie to spare my life.
They actually (call me dumb) convinced me I had convinced them.  So
what I had before me was both sides promising to be nice to me.

Doing what anyone (I think) would do if they are as stupid as I am,
I decided to take all the SC's I could get.  In theory, I was to be
left Ank, Nap, and Rom, and you would leave me Mar and give me Par.
I looked and saw that I could even get Spain.

Dave was even going to support me into LYO.  I know, I know,
call me stupid, but I bought it.  The whole "this was just a Springtime
ploy, then; let's do this and that" deal that they sold me was a
crock of crap.

You know have me devoted 100% to your solo, where if things had played
out as I THOUGHT they would, I would have still been wondering which
side to toss in on (they made it sound SO nice).

I apologize for taking Spain from you, but please know that because of
what just happened, after they led me so successfullly to believe that
it would NOT happen, you have in me an Italian with a very strong
Yorkshire accent.  If proxy is allowed in this game, I will proxy whatever
units you let me keep to you whenever you ask me to.

The one good thing (for me) is that I get to keep four units instead
of the three we thought I would have.  The bad parts are (1) that the
extra one I keep is one that YOU would have had, and (2) that we are
a bit west of where you wanted us to be.

My removes are at your command.  My future moves are at your command.
You may count on me like you count on yourself.  I hope you understand
why I did what I did; it was an act of trust based on a whole lot of
stupidity and a sense of false security based on a bloated ego thinking
that my persuasiveness had actually turned them.

I told them that if they left me alive, I would be stronger at the
end of the turn and would even build, and they'd then be able to
press me through the Med.  They acted like this was great, and then
they went and screwed me anyway.  I am yours.  Body and soul, I am
now yours.  Your wish is now my command, and may heaven grant you the
solo (or give you the big heart that would be necessary to reaffirm
a commitment to a two-way with me).

To tell you the truth, your last mail arrived in my mailbox just
before the moves went through.  Your speech had me near convinced
to change my orders to be exactly as you were looking for, but alas!
the moves went through first.  I won't cry since I have Spain and
can devote an extra southern unit to your cause, but I will and must
apologize for crossing you.  The end result, though has case me in
cement in the pro-English camp.  You may (finally) take Italian
friendship to the bank, and if you choose to eliminate me, I will
still root you on from the sidelines until the end of the game.

I played poorly to let Dave and Jamie screw me once.  I played
HORRIBLY to let them screw me twice.  I deserve to die.  I hope
that if I die, it will be at your hands, and if I do not get
what I deserve, that I will live to see Dave and Jamie submit to
a result that does not include them.

May the Diplomacy ghods shine upon your fortunes for all time,
beginning now, and may I help Them help you with whatever strength
I have left to my piss-poor-playing self,

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Hey, way to go!  You really suckered me!
>
Well, I'm glad that you honestly seem to appreciate it.  To be frank,
I was pretty proud of it myself.  If only they had gone through with it.
(Sigh.)

I'd have actually grown, when I had no other way to generate growth.
Growth had to come from you and I could get it from you only if my
elimination was threatened.  They threatened my elimination and I saw
my chance.  It was my first halfway decent and inspired diplomatic moment
in a long time in this game.  And I truly thought they bought it.
Obviously, they didn't, and they even managed to get me to cross you on
the very turn I would be throwing myself at your feet.

> I don't seem to be the only one though...
>
Boy, you got that right.  But you can now order my units around with
complete authority, that's for darn sure.  A turn later than you thought,
yes, but a fleet more than you thought.  Hopefully the trade off isn't
that bad.

Awaiting your orders, I am,

Proudly and determinedly puppeting for you,
Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>> Hey, way to go!  You really suckered me!
>>
>Well, I'm glad that you honestly seem to appreciate it.  To be frank,
>I was pretty proud of it myself.  If only they had gone through with it.
>(Sigh.)


Well, it had *occurred* to me that you at least had the ability to sucker
me,
but that was based on the fact that Dave's "stab" of you seemed a bit
half-hearted, not so much that your Diplomacy was lacking.  Oh well,
I still got suckered.

>I'd have actually grown, when I had no other way to generate growth.
>Growth had to come from you and I could get it from you only if my
>elimination was threatened.  They threatened my elimination and I saw
>my chance.  It was my first halfway decent and inspired diplomatic moment
>in a long time in this game.  And I truly thought they bought it.
>Obviously, they didn't, and they even managed to get me to cross you on
>the very turn I would be throwing myself at your feet.


No argument from me on why you did it.  You took a gamble and lost.
Your motivation was pure self-interest and I can always respect that. :)

>> I don't seem to be the only one though...
>>
>Boy, you got that right.  But you can now order my units around with
>complete authority, that's for darn sure.  A turn later than you thought,
>yes, but a fleet more than you thought.  Hopefully the trade off isn't
>that bad.


Well, I considered sending you a letter that started off:

"WHAT?!?  WHY?!?

but decided against it...  (Please don't apologise- I am sincerely,
good-naturedly
teasing you )

>Awaiting your orders, I am,

>Proudly and determinedly puppeting for you,


Well, I'll take this with a small grain of salt, but for better or worse, I
tend to
believe you this time.  After all, it's not ME who has duplicated the
Italian
Spring 1901 units in red...

I'll get back to you after I see what the build/removal situation is (I'm
too
lazy to look them up - do you own Smyrna?).  I think I'm removing two, but
that shouldn't be too painful with all my behind the lines units.

Later

Cal

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

My, my, my!

I didn't really expect Manus to get two centers from Cal!  Might have
been interesting had we not stabbed him.  On the other hand, I'm not
sure I'd have been all that happy in the middle then, and we certainly
know now that any attempt to stab each other is going to throw the
game as I don't think there is any doubt about Manus's commitment
to the cause this time.

You will of course retreat to Hel even if it will be destroyed soon?
Might as well tie him up another season.  In fact, you can use it to
guarantee moving your fleet build into Norway in the Spring by hitting
North Sea with it.

I really don't see much we can do that is tricky in the middle.  Our
chances lie in the north with you, and possibly in the south depending
on what Manus does and whether or not Cal throws in support for him
or cuts him off from behind.  We have to at least hope that Cal will
be willing to take out Manus for the three way if nothing else.

Any comments or ideas?

Kiaser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

That went well, I think. Not perfectly -- I didn't keep Kiel -- but well
(because I have a retreat for the fleet). And my paranoid fears about Italy
pulling a fast one and ordering Naf-Tun, GoL-Tys, are now laid to rest.

I will build Stp(nc). I think I still have a smallish chance of getting
something going up there. Cal can destroy my advanced fleet, but I could
take Norway and he will have to guard Sweden, and I will have a guess to
keep Stp open *next* winter again, and so on.

I think you ought to waive one of your builds, so you'll be able to build a
third fleet a year from now. Otherwise, I think we should just take a
three-way draw. If you're stuck with two fleets, Cal can just throw all his
force up north and I have no chance to make any progress. (Which is ok with
me, if that's the way you want to do it.)

Manus can't throw the game, of course. His broadcast was not very well
thought out. But I will leave him to his last delusions. ;-)

Tsar J

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

I sniffed out your plot. Ha ha! Too bad!

I think I'll let Manus save face and not respond too harshly to his
broadcast, but I hope *you* can see the score now. Go ahead and press on
Baltic and Scandinavia if you want, but do be sure you can see the
consequence (which appears to me extremely obvious, though I suppose I
*might* be missing something).

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Ooooh, taking your gripes to the General Public, huh?
There's a gauntlet I can't easily leave lying on the ground!

Just between us, given Dave's moves I pretty much had to take Ank. Couldn't
leave you angry and with five units. I sort of liked the prospect of having
you badger Cal in the west while I poked at him from the northeast, myself.
But there was another important point: if you built at home, the
opportunity to stab you would have been gone.

Don't up the stakes too much in your broadcasts! You'll regret it.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Observer in 'pouchtoo':

Dear Observers,

What does Kibbitzer Jim-Bob mean here?

(The other powers can find this message to you folk if they want to, but I
kind of doubt that they'll bother.)

Tsar J

>Broadcast message from [email protected] as Observer in 'pouchtoo':

>I have not looked at the position carefully, but when one does make
>such a claim in this game it is incumbent upon them to "play out all
>the tactics" so the desired outcome is achieved.  In ghods, when I
>did this, I planned it so that England won AND me and my Russian
>ally both survived.  Austria and Italy were sitting behind the
>14 center stalemate line in the southeast and so the 20 remaining
>centers were precisely enough to implement that plan.
>
>Some things are under our control.... as I said, we shall see, we
>shall see, in this case,
>Jim

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Ooooh, taking your gripes to the General Public, huh?
>
I'm sorry you think so.  To tell you the truth, I don't have any gripes.
Honest.  I was surprised to see that you took my broadcast message in
such a way that it looked like I was griping.

> There's a gauntlet I can't easily leave lying on the ground!
>
Pick up whatever you see laying around, though.  Didn't mean to make
it look like a gauntlet, though.  Sorry.

> Just between us, given Dave's moves I pretty much had to take Ank.
>
Well, yeah.  If Dave was going to screw me, you did indeed have to.
I'm not arguing with your moves at all.  I was just a bit sad that Dave
decided to toss me overboard.

> Couldn't
> leave you angry and with five units. I sort of liked the prospect of having
> you badger Cal in the west while I poked at him from the northeast, myself.
>
Yeah; I thought you liked it.  I should have trusted my suspicions of
Dave a bit more, but I had gotten myself in a position where my only
chance for growth was at Cal's expense, and the only way I could get it
was to convince Cal to give it to me of his own volition.  And the only
way to do that was to set myself up for a fake attack, and to do that
meant to take the risk that I'd die.  I took the risk and got the shaft.
Oh well, I think it was worth it.

> But there was another important point: if you built at home, the
> opportunity to stab you would have been gone.
>
Yeah, but why would you want to stab me?  :-)

> Don't up the stakes too much in your broadcasts! You'll regret it.
>
Hey, I wasn't upping the stakes.  Truly I wasn't.  I just thought I'd
explain to the observers what I was up to.  I didn't up any stakes, I
just explained them.

If you want to stab Dave, for example, I'll be happy to help.  But as
it stands, my only hope is with Cal.  If you have any argument otherwise,
I will consider it completely.

But then you'll get mad that I sometimes have busy real-life days.

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Ooooh, taking your gripes to the General Public, huh?
>
I'm sorry you think so.  To tell you the truth, I don't have any gripes.
Honest.  I was surprised to see that you took my broadcast message in
such a way that it looked like I was griping.

> There's a gauntlet I can't easily leave lying on the ground!
>
Pick up whatever you see laying around, though.  Didn't mean to make
it look like a gauntlet, though.  Sorry.

> Just between us, given Dave's moves I pretty much had to take Ank.
>
Well, yeah.  If Dave was going to screw me, you did indeed have to.
I'm not arguing with your moves at all.  I was just a bit sad that Dave
decided to toss me overboard.

> Couldn't
> leave you angry and with five units. I sort of liked the prospect of having
> you badger Cal in the west while I poked at him from the northeast, myself.
>
Yeah; I thought you liked it.  I should have trusted my suspicions of
Dave a bit more, but I had gotten myself in a position where my only
chance for growth was at Cal's expense, and the only way I could get it
was to convince Cal to give it to me of his own volition.  And the only
way to do that was to set myself up for a fake attack, and to do that
meant to take the risk that I'd die.  I took the risk and got the shaft.
Oh well, I think it was worth it.

> But there was another important point: if you built at home, the
> opportunity to stab you would have been gone.
>
Yeah, but why would you want to stab me?  :-)

> Don't up the stakes too much in your broadcasts! You'll regret it.
>
Hey, I wasn't upping the stakes.  Truly I wasn't.  I just thought I'd
explain to the observers what I was up to.  I didn't up any stakes, I
just explained them.

If you want to stab Dave, for example, I'll be happy to help.  But as
it stands, my only hope is with Cal.  If you have any argument otherwise,
I will consider it completely.

But then you'll get mad that I sometimes have busy real-life days.

Manus

Message from Russia to Observer in 'pouchtoo':

Oh, Jim-Bob!

I'd sent PRESS TO O (as I am doing now). You replied and included my press,
in a *broadcast*.

PRESS TO O goes only to observers. Broadcasts go to all players. I was
trying to talk only to the observers. You've spoiled it.

Bad, bad Jim-Bob.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria, Italy, Russia and

England in 'pouchtoo':

Dudes,

In case you are really mystified by Jim-Bob's most recent posting, let me
explain:

I'd sent the message that he included in a PRESS TO O, merely for amusement
of the observers. As you will have seen, I noted that the players could
find it if they looked, but doubted that any of you would bother. That
little joke fell kind of flat when Jim-Bob failed to get the point. Oh well.

In case you're wondering: I've checked, and there hasn't been any other
PRESS TO O in the last month or so, and probably none at all.
Also, Jim-Bob did include my *entire* PRESS TO O, I wasn't actually trying
to hide anything. I've just sent another PRESS TO O chiding Jim. Feel free
to search for it. Do you all know this trick? Of course Manus knows it....

-Jamie

Message from Observer to Observer in 'pouchtoo':

Ooops.... to be honest, I had forgotten that you could do that!

I just thought that was another BROADCAST message.

Why would you want to talk to just us?  ;-)

Seriously, since I erased the offending message (in the course of
reading and replying to keep my mailbox clean), did I do a big,
big boo-boo?  Or just a little boo-boo??

On the other hand, Observers are free agents, free to spy with
impunity, so I don't feel TOO badly.

STILL a Boob

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Observer in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Oh, Jim-Bob!
>
> I'd sent PRESS TO O (as I am doing now). You replied and included my press,
> in a *broadcast*.
>
> PRESS TO O goes only to observers. Broadcasts go to all players. I was
> trying to talk only to the observers. You've spoiled it.
>
> Bad, bad Jim-Bob.
>
> Tsar J
>
>

Message from Italy to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie:

I'm taking this back to judge press.  I think we might also want to
copy Rick on what has gone before.  (I'm always looking out for posterity,
you know.)

> Yeah, but I think Dave noticed this too. He didn't like the idea of being
> in the middle once Cal was no longer a big threat to win. [I am now
> experiencing an inner struggle in which I try to restrain myself from
> mentioning the situation on the board about three years back.]
>
Aw, go ahead and mention it.  I know exactly what you're talking about.
Fact was, though, that whichever way I went then, *I'd* be in the middle.
I could either be between you and Cal (who were both growing) if I took
Dave out with you, or between Cal and Dave (and Dave was on the ropes)
if I kept him alive.  At the time, at least, I thought see-sawing was
the way to go.  I saw two rocks and two hard places and had to choose
one set to stick myself into.  You and Cal had just recently both pulled
off a decent coup and grew nicely.  I saw my security as being one of two
middle powers allied to each other rather than as the only bone left between
the two big dogs.

> >Well heck no.  I hope he doesn't just take my centers.
>
> Yeah, but, well, see if you can actually *do* something about that. Negotiate!
>
Not to worry.

> > I plan to be in this
> >game with all the centers he leaves me until whatever the end of the game is.
>
> Uh.
> Yes, that's pretty safe to say!
>
Well, I don't think so.  I think my chance of being eliminated before the final
result is still pretty darn good.  Gotta keep my options open, and death
without dignity is certainly one of them!  :-)

> I'm just saying, playing completely pro-E doesn't mean you just have to do
> what he says. I'm suggesting that you insist on keeping at least a couple
> of centers.
>
Oh, don't worry.  I will insist on keeping three centers.  If he doesn't
let me, I'm dead so I'll just wreak havoc against him and whoever.  If I
had a home center, I would demand four centers, but as it is, three is the
best I can hope for.  But be assured I will indeed insist on being left
with three centers.

> I think that's the right way for you to go, frankly. For one
> thing, Cal apparently has to go along. For another, well, agreeing that he
> should just take Paris, Spain, and Mar, for example, that would be mere
> suicide, and a pointless one.
>
Right.  I never meant to imply that my job now was to just hand over the three
centers I have to Cal, and I don't think he expects that I will do that.
I certainly won't.  I have to put myself in a position where he can take them
if he wants, though, but it will indeed be clear to him that if he does
take any of them, what he lefts me will go as ballistic as possible on him.

> I think you ought to be allowed to keep all
> three Mediterranean centers. I don't hide the fact that it's better for me
> if you do.
>
I do see that it is, but all I can care about right now is that it's better
for ME if I do.  :-)  Down the road, as I say, if my see-saw swings me far
enough back to give you and me some adjacencies, who knows what we can
maybe do together.  Sure I'm a puppet now, but my strings are constantly
for sale.

> Oh, well, that would be different, of course! I'll take a solo any time.
> Surprising, isn't it?
>
We are so very much alike!  :-)

Manus

Message from Italy to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Oops!  Should've been press to r.  I'll try again.

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie:

I'm taking this back to judge press.  I think we might also want to
copy Rick on what has gone before.  (I'm always looking out for posterity,
you know.)

> Yeah, but I think Dave noticed this too. He didn't like the idea of being
> in the middle once Cal was no longer a big threat to win. [I am now
> experiencing an inner struggle in which I try to restrain myself from
> mentioning the situation on the board about three years back.]
>
Aw, go ahead and mention it.  I know exactly what you're talking about.
Fact was, though, that whichever way I went then, *I'd* be in the middle.
I could either be between you and Cal (who were both growing) if I took
Dave out with you, or between Cal and Dave (and Dave was on the ropes)
if I kept him alive.  At the time, at least, I thought see-sawing was
the way to go.  I saw two rocks and two hard places and had to choose
one set to stick myself into.  You and Cal had just recently both pulled
off a decent coup and grew nicely.  I saw my security as being one of two
middle powers allied to each other rather than as the only bone left between
the two big dogs.

> >Well heck no.  I hope he doesn't just take my centers.
>
> Yeah, but, well, see if you can actually *do* something about that. Negotiate!
>
Not to worry.

> > I plan to be in this
> >game with all the centers he leaves me until whatever the end of the game is.
>
> Uh.
> Yes, that's pretty safe to say!
>
Well, I don't think so.  I think my chance of being eliminated before the final
result is still pretty darn good.  Gotta keep my options open, and death
without dignity is certainly one of them!  :-)

> I'm just saying, playing completely pro-E doesn't mean you just have to do
> what he says. I'm suggesting that you insist on keeping at least a couple
> of centers.
>
Oh, don't worry.  I will insist on keeping three centers.  If he doesn't
let me, I'm dead so I'll just wreak havoc against him and whoever.  If I
had a home center, I would demand four centers, but as it is, three is the
best I can hope for.  But be assured I will indeed insist on being left
with three centers.

> I think that's the right way for you to go, frankly. For one
> thing, Cal apparently has to go along. For another, well, agreeing that he
> should just take Paris, Spain, and Mar, for example, that would be mere
> suicide, and a pointless one.
>
Right.  I never meant to imply that my job now was to just hand over the three
centers I have to Cal, and I don't think he expects that I will do that.
I certainly won't.  I have to put myself in a position where he can take them
if he wants, though, but it will indeed be clear to him that if he does
take any of them, what he lefts me will go as ballistic as possible on him.

> I think you ought to be allowed to keep all
> three Mediterranean centers. I don't hide the fact that it's better for me
> if you do.
>
I do see that it is, but all I can care about right now is that it's better
for ME if I do.  :-)  Down the road, as I say, if my see-saw swings me far
enough back to give you and me some adjacencies, who knows what we can
maybe do together.  Sure I'm a puppet now, but my strings are constantly
for sale.

> Oh, well, that would be different, of course! I'll take a solo any time.
> Surprising, isn't it?
>
We are so very much alike!  :-)

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Correction.  I own four centers.  I will insist that he leaves me four
centers.  Four not three.  I'm still bigger than a 1901 Italy.  Yay!  :-)

Manus

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Aw, go ahead and mention it.

Well, the thing is, although it's true that you would have been in the
middle either way, at least you would have had total control of the middle
if Dave were gone. Your throwaway leverage would have been very large. And
*you* would have been quite a lot larger, too.

Oh well, water under the bridge.


>> > I plan to be in this
>> >game with all the centers he leaves me until whatever the end of the
>>game is.
>>
>> Uh.
>> Yes, that's pretty safe to say!
>>
>Well, I don't think so.  I think my chance of being eliminated before the
>final
>result is still pretty darn good.

Yes, but you would still be left with all the centers Cal *left* you!
Namely, none.


>Oh, don't worry.  I will insist on keeping three centers.

(Four, you now say.)

Ok! Cool. I bet he will want at least one of them. He has to remove two
units this winter, he will want a replacement at the very least.


> I have to put myself in a position where he can take them
>if he wants, though,

Yes, you do, I agree.

Ciao,
Tsar J

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Oh well, water under the bridge.
>
Yeah; kind of yellowish water.  :-)

> Yes, but you would still be left with all the centers Cal *left* you!
> Namely, none.
>
True.  :-)

> >Oh, don't worry.  I will insist on keeping three centers.
>
> (Four, you now say.)
>
I'll start bargaining at four, but I think (like you do) that he'll take
me quickly to three and Paris will be his.

> > I have to put myself in a position where he can take them
> >if he wants, though,
>
> Yes, you do, I agree.
>
(Sound of a few tears of self-pity being shed.)

> Ciao,
>
Looks like it.  :-)

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Well, it had *occurred* to me that you at least had the ability to sucker
> me, but that was based on the fact that Dave's "stab" of you seemed a bit
> half-hearted,
>
It was indeed.  His Spring moves were supposed to be more convincing, and
I thought when I saw that I would have a tough time convincing you to
give me a center.  To me, the fake stab *looked* fake.  Of course,
it was carried off against my wishes, so it didn't matter how fake it
looked; it wasn't fake at all, the snakes!  :-)

> not so much that your Diplomacy was lacking.  Oh well,
> I still got suckered.
>
Might end up being my parting shot in the game, with the sad result that
it backed up the side I ended up on, but such is Diplomacy.

> No argument from me on why you did it.  You took a gamble and lost.
> Your motivation was pure self-interest and I can always respect that. :)
>
To quote Kang from Star Trek's "Errand of Mercy":  "It would have been
glorious!"

> Well, I considered sending you a letter that started off:
>
> "WHAT?!?  WHY?!?
>
That would have been the Manus way to handle things.  :-)

I thought I handled my reaction to Jamie and Dave's moves better than
the reaction you call to mind, but apparently not.  To be honest, though,
when I wrote you the what/why message it was truly because I was confused
and couldn't tell what or why.  Since things didn't break as you thought,
I didn't see the rationale behind your moves.  (I think I thanked you
for setting me straight and explaining things, but in case I didn't,
thanks.)  Now Dave and Jamie, on the other hand, I knew what and I knew why.
I asked them to put their daggers against my back so I could see what I
could get from you, and I hoped they wouldn't make them stick.  They did.
Rats.

> but decided against it...  (Please don't apologise- I am sincerely,
> good-naturedly teasing you )
>
And I am good-naturedly taking it.  :-)

> >Proudly and determinedly puppeting for you,
>
> Well, I'll take this with a small grain of salt, but for better or worse, I
> tend to believe you this time.
>
Yeah, this time you can take it to the bank.  If I had the brick and mortar,
I would even build you a bank to take it to if you needed me to.  Heck, a
whole bank system.  Tell me how many branches you want.

I have spoken a lot to Jamie since the moves (not just in the broadcast
press) and told him that if my units ever come back in contact with his, I'd
be willing to assist him in running his knife through Dave when the time
comes.  But my diplomacy is your diplomacy now, Cal, so whatever and whenever
anything comes from this (right now, of course, it is just an attempt
to get him to not necessarily support Dave quite as vigorously as he
might otherwise), the decisions and the moves to be made will be yours.

> After all, it's not ME who has duplicated the Italian
> Spring 1901 units in red...
>
No; it was half me and half Dave.  I asked for half of it and he delivered
the whole enchilada.

> I'll get back to you after I see what the build/removal situation is (I'm
> too lazy to look them up
>
Good to see I'm with an ally that shares my laziness.  Jamie continually
lists as one of his reasons for stabbing me (time 1 and time 2) the fact
that, due to real-life, etc., I often sent messages saying, "I don't have
time to look now, but (some brief remark)."  By the time I got time,
there was a lot of cross-press to go through and I ended up saying stuff like,
"okay; sounds good to me."  I have no doubt (but heck, haven't I been wrong
before? :-) that when Jamie DOES get around to analyzing the quality of
play in this game, he'll make mention of this and call it inattention to
the game.

> - do you own Smyrna?).
>
Nope.  I only own Paris, Tunis, Marseilles, and Spain.  I hope to God
that you leave me with all four of them, because the more units I can
use on our behalf, the happier I will be.

> I think I'm removing two, but
> that shouldn't be too painful with all my behind the lines units.
>
Onward then!  When you do get a chance to look at the map, let me know
what you would like to see as far as Italian removals.

Also, I hope when you get a chance to look at the map, you will determine
that my throw-game card is not just a joker.  I honestly don't know and I
took it on faith (and assurances from Jamie and Dave) that I still held the
power.  My confidence in their assurances now are -- shall we say -- shaken.

Manus

Build

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Hey, I only have to remove one.  Way cool.  I assume you want it to be the
army in Paris, but I will leave it to you.  Perhaps you see some use that
could be made of it (guess what: I haven't looked).  :-)

So we're down to an 11/10/9/5 race.  Our side only has 16 and theirs has 19.
Maybe we're out of luck.  But I have faith in your tactical abilities.
Faith and hope.  And prayer.

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Hey, I only have to remove one.  Way cool.  I assume you want it to be the
>army in Paris, but I will leave it to you.  Perhaps you see some use that
>could be made of it (guess what: I haven't looked).  :-)


Yeah, the army makes the most sense.  Our only hope is to grab
immediate and overwhelming control of the Med.  Dave can only build
one fleet a season (and I suspect he'll have to decline one of his current
builds to put another unit on the board next year) and Jamie is unlikely
to build anywhere but St Pete's (THIS year anyway).

>So we're down to an 11/10/9/5 race.  Our side only has 16 and theirs has
19.
>Maybe we're out of luck.  But I have faith in your tactical abilities.


I think we're in pretty good shape if we stick together.  I just lost a
sizeable chunk of frontline along which I have to maintain units and you
have little naval opposition in the Med.  We have to maximize these points
and ride them to victory.

BTW, although I WILL try to take the solo you're offering, I have every
intention of making sure you finish the game (alive that is...) with more
centres than either Jamie or Dave.

More later.

Cal

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>I sniffed out your plot. Ha ha! Too bad!


Um, plot?  You've lost me.

>I think I'll let Manus save face and not respond too harshly to his
>broadcast,

I didn't think his reaction was as harsh as you made it out to be, but then
again, maybe I'm just comparing it to his outburst the time *I* attacked
him.

>but I hope *you* can see the score now.

Maybe I shouldn't read these things when I just wake up, but the score I see
is 19-15 for A/R over E/I.  Am I missing something?

>Go ahead and press on
>Baltic and Scandinavia if you want, but do be sure you can see the
>consequence (which appears to me extremely obvious, though I suppose I
>*might* be missing something).


One of us is and it seems to be me.  I see a pretty strongly allied (by your
own admission) A/R with 20 centres and the only consequence I can see of
resistance is my possible survival.  And even that's in doubt if you and
Dave stay the course - I can see no likely reason for you to switch horses
now.

Confusticated,

Cal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Yeah, the army makes the most sense.
>
Okay, my Paris removal order is in.

> Our only hope is to grab immediate and overwhelming control of the Med.
>
Right.  My sailors know that your Admirals are the bosses.  Ahoy!

> Dave can only build
> one fleet a season (and I suspect he'll have to decline one of his current
> builds to put another unit on the board next year) and Jamie is unlikely
> to build anywhere but St Pete's (THIS year anyway).
>
So we have a little bit of time to get something going....

> I think we're in pretty good shape if we stick together.  I just lost a
> sizeable chunk of frontline along which I have to maintain units and you
> have little naval opposition in the Med.  We have to maximize these points
> and ride them to victory.
>
And away we go.....

> BTW, although I WILL try to take the solo you're offering, I have every
> intention of making sure you finish the game (alive that is...) with more
> centres than either Jamie or Dave.
>
Deal.  Boy, if that actually happens...uh, sorry, where was I? I got lost
in my thoughts there and found myself too busy smiling broadly to finish
my sentences.

Since we're being honest, my preference is a 2-way, and if I actually grow
to get a couple home centers back, I probably WILL ask you (maybe even harp
on it) to include me in a N-way rather than take the solo, but your call is
my call, and I'll abide by it.  Were I in your position, of course, the solo
is what *I* would choose.  If we get there and you choose the solo despite
any harping I do, I'll be the first to congratulate you and will support you
across the finish line if need be.

> More later.
>
Okay.  Let's do this thing.  The observers have had enough of a ploy vs.
ploy show (I had an okay one to take Turkey out -- which I regretted soon
enough, you had a good one, Russia and Austria had a good couple, I had
another half-a-one just now) and it's time to demonstrate some flat-out
tactical magic for them.  King Kal, my men salute you and bow before you
awaiting your orders.

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':


>I thought I handled my reaction to Jamie and Dave's moves better than
>the reaction you call to mind, but apparently not.

Actually, Jamie's reaction surprised me as I didn't think your note was THAT
inflammatory.  Oh well, it's not always easy to judge what will set someone
off.  We all have different buttons.  Me, I like to think it's because your
throw-game threat REALLY has him worried... heh heh.

>I have spoken a lot to Jamie since the moves (not just in the broadcast
>press) and told him that if my units ever come back in contact with his,
I'd
>be willing to assist him in running his knife through Dave when the time
>comes.  But my diplomacy is your diplomacy now, Cal, so whatever and
whenever
>anything comes from this (right now, of course, it is just an attempt
>to get him to not necessarily support Dave quite as vigorously as he
>might otherwise), the decisions and the moves to be made will be yours.


It's an idea worth pursuing and for the reasons you outline, but I doubt if
it will work.  If you race thru the Med and I make ANY sort of
tactical/supply centre gains in the north, they won't be able to afford to
attack each other.  Hopefully, this shouldn't matter.

>Good to see I'm with an ally that shares my laziness.  Jamie continually
>lists as one of his reasons for stabbing me (time 1 and time 2) the fact
>that, due to real-life, etc., I often sent messages saying, "I don't have
>time to look now, but (some brief remark)."  By the time I got time,
>there was a lot of cross-press to go through and I ended up saying stuff
like,
>"okay; sounds good to me."  I have no doubt (but heck, haven't I been wrong
>before? :-) that when Jamie DOES get around to analyzing the quality of
>play in this game, he'll make mention of this and call it inattention to
>the game.


For me, my "attention" to the game doesn't wane, but a) I don't tend to
remember supply centre charts other than in a vague way which directly
concerns me; and b) it depends on whether or not I can find some place to
keep the board set up.  Now that we're settled back into my old house, I
have it set up on the desk behind me so I can stare at it several times a
day waiting for "tactical inspiration"... 

>Onward then!  When you do get a chance to look at the map, let me know
>what you would like to see as far as Italian removals.


As mentioned in my last letter, I'd like the army removed.  Suggested and
hopefully coordinated moves to follow...

>Also, I hope when you get a chance to look at the map, you will determine
>that my throw-game card is not just a joker.  I honestly don't know and I
>took it on faith (and assurances from Jamie and Dave) that I still held the
>power.  My confidence in their assurances now are -- shall we say --
shaken.


Like I said, there isn't a single blue unit in Italy...

Cal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Actually, Jamie's reaction surprised me as I didn't think your note was THAT
> inflammatory.  Oh well, it's not always easy to judge what will set someone
> off.  We all have different buttons.
>
I believe that in the many messages he and I exchanged since then, I have
successfully convinced him that my tone must have been misinterpreted.
When I wrote my broadcast, my mindset was matter-of-fact, this-could-have-
happened-I-knew-the-risks, now-I'd-like-to-explain-it-to-the-Observers,
is all.

> Me, I like to think it's because your
> throw-game threat REALLY has him worried... heh heh.
>
Unfortunately, I'm not so sure.  If he had been that worried, he would
have tried to talk Dave into my plan.  Or at least he would have held off
on Ankara and taken it later if I held a grudge.

However, I do know for a fact that he doubted your promise to give me
Paris, and he thought I should try for MAO instead of Spain.  So, if
this is indeed the case, the R/A calculation that I would have a navy
consisting of one or two units was vastly wrong.  Hopefully enough to
make the throw-game threat as real as I hoped it would be, and as they
may have thought it wouldn't be.

More evidence to this effect is that Jamie's first message of substance
to me after the moves was directly to this point:  don't throw the game
to Cal.  Look at your position and negotiate with him.  Don't submit to
his will.  So maybe they're afraid of my four fleets (yay!) after all.

So put on your catcher's mask, Cal -- here comes the game.  I'll try to
put it right over the plate.

> It's an idea worth pursuing and for the reasons you outline, but I doubt if
> it will work.  If you race thru the Med and I make ANY sort of
> tactical/supply centre gains in the north, they won't be able to afford to
> attack each other.  Hopefully, this shouldn't matter.
>
Right.  You never know, though, and maybe he will weaken his defense of
the center of the line, or pass me info to let me take some Italian
centers.  I can see him doing this if he wants to grab at Dave's underbelly
with a swift stroke that wouldn't harm his position against you.  If
we can minimize the front that DAVE has with you, it might encourage
Jamie to make a stab.  Like you say, it's a remote shot, but it gives me
something to talk about with Jamie, at least.

> For me, my "attention" to the game doesn't wane,
>
Neither does mine.  Unfortunately, my time to get tactical decisions made
hasn't tended to line up with either the move results publications or with the
tactical planning time of my various allies.  Just an unfortunate effect
of real life in this particular game for some reason.

> but a) I don't tend to
> remember supply centre charts other than in a vague way which directly
> concerns me;
>
Again, I'm the same.  I couldn't list your SC's right now other than
Portugal and Brest and mainland England.  Honest.  I imagine you own
Belgium and Holland and Norway too, but those would be late guesses.

> and b) it depends on whether or not I can find some place to
> keep the board set up.
>
I'm still an electronic freak.  Feel free to use my map.  Just point
your Web browser to:
   http://starship.skyport.net/crew/manus/maps/pouchtoo.ps

As long as you have a PostScript viewer installed (ghostscript and gsview
for the PC), you can pore over the map that way as well.

> Now that we're settled back into my old house, I
> have it set up on the desk behind me so I can stare at it several times a
> day waiting for "tactical inspiration"... 
>
I'll be hoping it comes to you fast and often.  As time goes on, I may
assist, but it's your show and I'm just a bit player for the moment.
I wouldn't presume to suggest lines to the author.

> As mentioned in my last letter, I'd like the army removed.
>
It's as good as done.

> Suggested and hopefully coordinated moves to follow...
>
I look forward to them.

> Like I said, there isn't a single blue unit in Italy...
>
If only there were green ones....a dream to work towards!

Manus

Message from England to Austria, Italy and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to Austria, Italy, Russia and
>England in 'pouchtoo':


>Also, Jim-Bob did include my *entire* PRESS TO O, I wasn't actually trying
>to hide anything. I've just sent another PRESS TO O chiding Jim. Feel free
>to search for it. Do you all know this trick? Of course Manus knows it....


Shit man, I barely have a good enough handle on this electronic stuff to get
my orders in (and I still have only ONCE ever gotten it right the first
time).  Now you're expecting me to know the esoteric trix?  :)

Cal

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':


>> Me, I like to think it's because your
>> throw-game threat REALLY has him worried... heh heh.
>>
>Unfortunately, I'm not so sure.  If he had been that worried, he would
>have tried to talk Dave into my plan.  Or at least he would have held off
>on Ankara and taken it later if I held a grudge.


Yeah, but I meant in light of the board situation as it stands now with your
stronger-than-expected status.

>More evidence to this effect is that Jamie's first message of substance
>to me after the moves was directly to this point:  don't throw the game
>to Cal.  Look at your position and negotiate with him.  Don't submit to
>his will.  So maybe they're afraid of my four fleets (yay!) after all.


Yup. :)

>I'm still an electronic freak.  Feel free to use my map.  Just point
>your Web browser to:
>   http://starship.skyport.net/crew/manus/maps/pouchtoo.ps
>
>As long as you have a PostScript viewer installed (ghostscript and gsview
>for the PC), you can pore over the map that way as well.


I use the Pouch link to Mapper when I'm at work.  I usually have enough time
these days (after 4:AM anyway) to look this up.  Pretty handy utility and it
doesn't need anything other than a current "LIST" of the positions.

BTW (and stepping out of the game for a minute), I do think you had the
right to mention the Clinton stuff in the latest issue of the Pouch (as
boring as I find the events in the Oral Office to be) and also the right to
say that you wouldn't print replies.  People lose sight of the fact that the
Pouch, for all it's status as the "flagship e-zine", is still YOUR labour of
love and you can put whatever you want into it.  If people don't like it,
they don't have to read it.  Keep up the good work.

Cal
Former publisher of Janus, Electric Glide Blue and Northern Flame (not to
mention Everything, Tyromania, The Many Loves of Vampirella, I Can Do
Anything I Want To Do, I'm A Bus & The Sentinel) ALL labours of love... ;)

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Um, plot?  You've lost me.

Oh, well, I'll go slower then.
What you were telling *me* was that you'd allow me to have Denmark, Sweden,
and Kiel, and then we could try attacking Dave and making a run at victory.
But you didn't do that at all. Really, you were (a) hoping to get me to
make bad moves in the north, and (b) planning to get Manus to help you
across the stalemate line.
But, I didn't fall for it.
But I don't blame you for trying, don't worry.


>One of us is and it seems to be me.  I see a pretty strongly allied (by your
>own admission) A/R with 20 centres and the only consequence I can see of
>resistance is my possible survival.  And even that's in doubt if you and
>Dave stay the course - I can see no likely reason for you to switch horses
>now.

My reason would be that I hope to do better than a 3-way draw.
That would also be your reason for not fighting too hard in the North. I
thought *you* were suggesting that approach about a week ago. I suppose you
were not serious.

In that case, I believe the game will be a 3-way draw. You mark my words.
We'll grind away for two or three moves, until it becomes clear that the
only thing left to do is to work out a way for you to eliminate Manus. And
then you will, and that will be it.

Oh well, we'll still have a skirmish or two, that will be amusing.

Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>>Um, plot?  You've lost me.
>
>Oh, well, I'll go slower then.
>What you were telling *me* was that you'd allow me to have Denmark, Sweden,
>and Kiel, and then we could try attacking Dave and making a run at victory.
>But you didn't do that at all. Really, you were (a) hoping to get me to
>make bad moves in the north, and (b) planning to get Manus to help you
>across the stalemate line.
>But, I didn't fall for it.
>But I don't blame you for trying, don't worry.


You seem to be forgetting, you turned that deal down.  I was quite sincere
when I said it, but your response was and (let me paste a quote here):

"There is no 'bargain'. Just for the record."

Sounds pretty definitive to me (and not, I think/hope, out of context).
When Manus made me what seemed to be a good offer, I took it.  It's not my
fault he a) wasn't being truthful and b) Dave attacked him.

>My reason would be that I hope to do better than a 3-way draw.
>That would also be your reason for not fighting too hard in the North. I
>thought *you* were suggesting that approach about a week ago. I suppose
>you were not serious.


I was serious until you turned me down.

>In that case, I believe the game will be a 3-way draw. You mark my words.
>We'll grind away for two or three moves, until it becomes clear that the
>only thing left to do is to work out a way for you to eliminate Manus. And
>then you will, and that will be it.


You're probably right, but there's still play in this game yet.

>Oh well, we'll still have a skirmish or two, that will be amusing.


Whatever.

Cal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Hm. I thought at first that your offer did not depend on any specific
reciprocation by me.

Then later you seemed to be saying that we had a 'deal' in which you would
give me centers and I would stab Dave in the next couple of moves. I wanted
to make it clear that I could not agree to that. That's why I said there
was no 'bargain'.

If that was the offer, then I would have been a moron to accept it. Since I
doubt that you think I'm a moron, I assume that was *not* the deal you had
in mind. But I wonder what the deal was?

Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> If that was the offer, then I would have been a moron to accept it. Since I
> doubt that you think I'm a moron, I assume that was *not* the deal you had
> in mind. But I wonder what the deal was?

That was pretty much exactly the deal I had in mind, but I have no idea
why you think you'd have been a "moron" to accept it.  The idea was
roughly this:

I give you several centres, thereby strengthening your position and
weakening mine.  Once we were equalized, you attack Dave and I
continue attacking Manus.  I hoped you would feel that you would have an
easier time in taking Austrian centres than mine.

Anyway, you didn't like my offer and the game will now play out.

As an aside, is everything going okay with you?  You reacted rather
harshly to Manus' broadcasts and even your notes to me were a bit out of
character.  Normally, you don't use words like moron.  I'm just wondering
if everything is okay.  I'm asking this in an out-of-game context  (ie it's
not a game ploy; I'm just concerned)

Cheers,

Cal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

>I give you several centres, thereby strengthening your position and
>weakening mine.  Once we were equalized, you attack Dave and I
>continue attacking Manus.  I hoped you would feel that you would have an
>easier time in taking Austrian centres than mine.

Ok, but then why did you say this:

>I understand, but I need to see something soon.  I can't afford to give up
>too much ground if you're not going to keep your end of the bargain.

Didn't you mean that I had to attack Dave *before* you gave me the
Scandinavian centers? Or what did you mean by 'soon'?


>As an aside, is everything going okay with you?

Yes.

>You reacted rather
>harshly to Manus' broadcasts and even your notes to me were a bit out of
>character.  Normally, you don't use words like moron.

Even describing myself??
It's one of my favorite words!

> I'm just wondering
>if everything is okay.  I'm asking this in an out-of-game context  (ie it's
>not a game ploy; I'm just concerned)

Thanks. Everything's fine. Really.

Tsar J

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Last updated on Wed, July 21, 1999.