Movement

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> Agreed.  d:})
> How do you figure Italy will react to the fleet in Marseilles?  Or are you
> planning on a southern move?

Well, I suppose there's no point going in for half-measures, and
all... ;-)

Oh well.  You can rest assured that I will happily hand Manus Iberia
before seeing you there.  And if you're working with John as it
appears, I suspect even he will find France quite defensible against
ground invasion.

Let me know if you ever wish to change your mind.

Hohn

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> Sorry for the delay.  Short of it is okay.  Long of it will come
> tomorrow.  (I want to talk until you make me feel good.)

Short of it is, thanks for permission.  Long of it is, I wish you'd
said no, in retrospect. ;-)

In light of naked English aggression, I will need to go to MID and
SPA(sc) this turn, but I'm hoping you will see why, and that you know
I'm certainly not headed in your direction.

In fact, if you're interested in helping me out with one fleet (two
would make me rather nervous), I will promise you that if it looks
like I am going to lose ground to Cal, or even be eliminated, I will
support you into Iberia and Marseilles rather than see him get any of
them.  Please let me know if you're interested.

Thanks,
Hohn

Message from France to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie,

> I don't know what to build. Well, yes I do, but I don't know where.
> I think I'm going to do something that looks really dumb.
> If Steve sends you anything, please tell me.
> I hate these long diplomacy periods. The waiting kills me. I am especially
> looking forward to seeing your adjustments, by the way.

I wish I had built differently.  Actually, I wish _Cal_ had built
differently.  Hell, I even wish _you_ had built differently. ;-)

In any event, I suspect you're dedicated to an eastern strategy.  If
there's anything I can do to get you to come west (or even harass in
the north, as unrealistic as that appears right now), please let me
know.  I'll offer anything I can.  Support into MUN, whatever you
like.

Hohn

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

Based on your and Cal's builds, I'm presuming you're coming after me.
If there's anything I can offer to get you to change your mind, please
let me know; I suspect I'll be happy to agree.

Hohn

Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':

Holy cow.
E/G vs F was the one alignment I had ruled out!

I don't know what I can do, personally. I'll certainly move the A Mos to
either Stp, providing a little distraction for England, or to Warsaw, making
Germany think about keeping a little land force to the east. And I'll be
trying to get either Austria or Italy or both to put something up near Munich.

But to be honest, I'm a little scared of G/E myself and wouldn't want them
to, say, kick me out of Sweden and take Stp....

Well, there's plenty of diplomacy time to work on your problem.

Bonne chance,
Tsar J

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Uh oh, my info was wrong. Sorry, many apologies. But it looks like you're
going to have the alignment you want, in any case!

I have a few concerns, but nothing horribly serious, I think this is going
to work out ok for me. More Monday,

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hm, this is looking pretty good. I think my main concern now is the
possibility of a midgame A/G alliance with a huge land force. Aside from
that I'm feeling pretty comfortable.

More Monday,
Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Just quickly--
I didn't expect E/G vs F. I don't know why, I guess I assumed Hohn would be
the best diplomat in the opening. I'm afraid I played a role in causing that
alignment. It's my least favorite, because I like having France strong
later, to sandwich either E or G with me. On the other hand, this way you
and I can work together for a long time without even having to attack Italy
if we don't want to.

Of course, a joint G+E could really screw me right this moment, but I have a
good reason to expect that won't happen. A kind of ace in the hole. So I'm
comfortable being so committed southward.

Right, catch you Monday. Hope you're enjoying your f-t-f.

Tsar J

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':

>> Agreed.  d:})
>> How do you figure Italy will react to the fleet in Marseilles?  Or are
you
>> planning on a southern move?
>
>Well, I suppose there's no point going in for half-measures, and
>all... ;-)


"Everything to excess!  Moderation is for monks!"

(Robert Heinlein in "Time Enough For Love"  Words to live by...:) )


>Oh well.  You can rest assured that I will happily hand Manus Iberia
>before seeing you there.  And if you're working with John as it
>appears, I suspect even he will find France quite defensible against
>ground invasion.
>
>Let me know if you ever wish to change your mind.


Will do, and we both know that's it's always possible in this game.  FWIW,
this was the best way to stop John from building a fleet.  He was waiting
for some kind of committment from one of us and I guess he got it from me
first.  Also, some who shall remain nameless (damn his Russianness) told me
he had heard you were building two fleets.  I couldn't see him, as a
Russian, wanting to force an E/G, so I decided against taking a chance.

Ah well, maybe it'll be your turn next.  One day we'll have a chance to be
gamelong allies! ("Fat chance" mutters Hohn...)    d:-})

King Kal

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Uh oh, my info was wrong. Sorry, many apologies. But it looks like you're
>going to have the alignment you want, in any case!


Don't worry about it.  It was the negotiations with F/G that made my
decision for me.

>I have a few concerns, but nothing horribly serious, I think this is going
>to work out ok for me. More Monday,


I think it will work out for both of us.  As I said previously, Germany will
be an easy target for you and I to combine on later in the game.  Our main
concern til then will be to figure out how to keep Austria & Italy spinning
their wheels so that they will provide little resistance when the time comes
to take them out.  Naturally the best way to do that would be to get them
fighting.  Any thoughts on that?

King Kal

Message from Observer to England in 'pouchtoo':

At least I'll not comment in public. Anyway: Did you ally with France or was
that just a not so intelligent build on his part?

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Thoughts on how to get Austria and Italy fighting:
I bet you that I don't have much problem with that, when the time comes.

Exactly how I do it (or try to do it, let me not get too megalomaniacal
about this... yet) depends on the situation. One obvious approach is for me
and Italy to team up against Austria, maybe at about the same time that you
and I are squishing Germany. Thus leaving an EIR endgame, which might be
quite exciting, especially the E+R vs I kind of EIR endgame! A second
approach would be for me to capitalize on the paranoia that each of A and I
have about the other, convincing him to do a pre-emptive strike. And the
last possibility is for Austria to be encouraged to build some fleets, and
then go for Mediterranean control of his own (Austrians often yearn for that).
Don't forget that Austria and Italy are already out of balance, and I expect
Austria will get more out of Turkey, and faster, than Italy does. That
imbalance will make it very difficult for IA to hold together as an
alliance. That's one main reason I'm not too worried.

Germany's army-heavy forces are really good for your big plan, too, huh?
He'll be helpless against a stab by you.

I bet he will ask you to support him into Sweden in the Fall. I'm hoping (a)
most of all that you won't do it!, and (b) that you'll let me know if he
asks you to.


Later,
Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Thoughts on how to get Austria and Italy fighting:
>I bet you that I don't have much problem with that, when the time comes.
>
>Exactly how I do it (or try to do it, let me not get too megalomaniacal
>about this... yet) depends on the situation. One obvious approach is for me
>and Italy to team up against Austria, maybe at about the same time that you
>and I are squishing Germany. Thus leaving an EIR endgame, which might be
>quite exciting, especially the E+R vs I kind of EIR endgame! A second
>approach would be for me to capitalize on the paranoia that each of A and I
>have about the other, convincing him to do a pre-emptive strike. And the
>last possibility is for Austria to be encouraged to build some fleets, and
>then go for Mediterranean control of his own (Austrians often yearn for
that).
>Don't forget that Austria and Italy are already out of balance, and I
expect
>Austria will get more out of Turkey, and faster, than Italy does. That
>imbalance will make it very difficult for IA to hold together as an
>alliance. That's one main reason I'm not too worried.


This all sounds pretty good to me.  It only remains to see that neither
Austria nor Italy get too big for their britches....  :)

>Germany's army-heavy forces are really good for your big plan, too, huh?
>He'll be helpless against a stab by you.


It's nice to be in a game where I can HAVE a "big game picture"...  Anyway,
that was another reason I decided to work with him.  He offered to stick to
armies in return for my building a fleet in Liverpool.  Simple enough.

>I bet he will ask you to support him into Sweden in the Fall. I'm hoping
(a)
>most of all that you won't do it!, and (b) that you'll let me know if he
>asks you to.


I'm waiting for him to ask as well and I'll put him off (I hope) with
arguments against the "two-front war" concept.

I will let you know if he asks about it, but I suspect his asking is a
foregone conclusion.  We'll keep in touch.

King Kal

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

Excellent!

Hohn has already contacted me, begging for mercy.  Maybe we can whipsaw
him a little to get this over with quicker.

Russia speculated about A Stp in a message to me, but he must have felt
reasonably secure when I did not bounce him.  No doubt, you also gave
him assurances.  He's very vulnerable, but I think a second front is
premature. I won't be surprised if he orders mos-war just to be on the
safe side. If we leave him alone in Sweden, he might then take the
armies south.

The tactics are going to be tricky.  I'd like to slide A Hol down the
coast, but that might mean Belgium swaps hands. What do you think of me
trying to get into Picardy, but perhaps not making it?  I think we could
find you another center (Sweden in the fall, if nothing else) to make up
for it.

John

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Tsar J:

I did not receive your message until today. Actually, I found it a bit
surprising that you would prefer F Kie. If I were Russia, that build
would worry me.  In any case, England's F Lvp should tell you the story.
My armies will not be moving east.

As for Sweden, I've already informed England I am not interested in
violating Russia's suzerainty over that territory.

Best of luck,

Kaiser J

Message from Observer to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Freundliche Gruesse, Herr Dreier

I mean, I wouldn't want to have to pull it off alone in the south, when at
least Germany is most likely to be a threat in the west. Although you're up to
six units, you can't grow much more all on your own.

But my statement was only to prove that Austrias position is as good as yours,
that a lot of people would seek his assistance/friendship. I guess I could
also have said: *Russia would like an ally, too.*

About that Fleet: It should have read: F Mar is almost an invitation. For
England, I meant. Anyway, ...

Until next round, Felix

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Excellent!


My sentiments exactly!

>Hohn has already contacted me, begging for mercy.  Maybe we can whipsaw
>him a little to get this over with quicker.


That would be nice.  If we get our end of the board sorted out quickly, it's
just that much less time for the east to do the same.

>Russia speculated about A Stp in a message to me, but he must have felt
>reasonably secure when I did not bounce him.  No doubt, you also gave
>him assurances.  He's very vulnerable, but I think a second front is
>premature. I won't be surprised if he orders mos-war just to be on the
>safe side. If we leave him alone in Sweden, he might then take the
>armies south.

Yeah, I agree.  Even though Russia is the next obvious victim of an E/G, I
really don't believe in two-front wars if they can be avoided.  And Hohn
certainly does have a lot of fight in him yet.

>The tactics are going to be tricky.  I'd like to slide A Hol down the
>coast, but that might mean Belgium swaps hands. What do you think of me
>trying to get into Picardy, but perhaps not making it?  I think we could
>find you another center (Sweden in the fall, if nothing else) to make up
>for it.


I'd rather not take a "make-up" centre that will involve us in a war with
Russia!  I'd also rather not jeopardize the good start I've had.  Our
advantage over Hohn stems from our naval superiority and I don't want to
risk losing a fleet here.  I'm sure you can see that.

You're right about the tactics though.  If Hohn guesses right, France will
be a tough nut to crack.  I've looked over the situation and the obvious
moves we are going to make are:

Me:  F Lpl-Iri; F Lon-Eng; F Nwy-Nrg (I think); A Bel ?; F Nth ?
You: F Den H; A Kie-Ruh; A Hol ?; A Mun ?; A Ber ?

What do you suggest?  I'll keep studying the situation, but I'm starting to
think a move to Picardy from Belgium might be a good idea.  I also think I
have a few more hours of staring at the damned board in front of me... :)

Picardy or Burgandy?  Burgandy or Picardy?  Hmmm...

King Kal

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

How about this: mun s kie-ruh, kie-ruh, hol-bel in the Spring, then in
the Fall, ruh, mun s bel-bur.

Unless Hohn defends bur with par and gas, I'm in, and you hold hol.
Paris will be overburdened.  If he does defend bur, then you take bre
easily. At worst, you stay even, and we don't antagonize Russia.

Maybe he'll defend bre with gas s mid - bre, which would put me in bur.
If you attacked bre wtih lon s pic-bre, you'd have a standoff in mid and
bre, unfortunately. If you let bre-mid happen, you'd at least be in mid,
which really harms his position.

Well, I'll do some pondering, but those are my first thoughts.

Kaiser J

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Considering the other adjustments, I am very happy with A Kie, A Ber.

My A Mos was supposed to defend either Warsaw or Stp; now I have no idea
what to do with it. I guess I could order Arm-Syr, Sev-Arm, Mos-Sev, but
that's just so silly-looking.

Tsar J

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>How about this: mun s kie-ruh, kie-ruh, hol-bel in the Spring, then in
>the Fall, ruh, mun s bel-bur.
>
>Unless Hohn defends bur with par and gas, I'm in, and you hold hol.
>Paris will be overburdened.  If he does defend bur, then you take bre
>easily. At worst, you stay even, and we don't antagonize Russia.
>
>Maybe he'll defend bre with gas s mid - bre, which would put me in bur.
>If you attacked bre with lon s pic-bre, you'd have a standoff in mid and
>bre, unfortunately. If you let bre-mid happen, you'd at least be in mid,
>which really harms his position.


You didn't put down what moves I'm supposed to make.  From your comment
about me possibly holding hol (Holland?) in the Fall if you don't vacate
Belgium, I take it I'm supposed to move F Nth-Hol this turn?  And then move
to Belgium in the Fall

This is worth contemplating.  Let me know if this is what you meant.

King Kal

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

Guys:

France's builds were a mystery, most of all, to me.  I am very concerned
that there is an E/F going on, amid all these talks of an English stab
of France.  There may even be a Western Triple.  I believe the it may
be the case that I have to guard the west a bit more than I would like.
How are you guys set for tossing Turkey around without me for a little
while?  As for me, I think what I am considering is heading for Tyrolia
to test France's promise of help into Munich and maybe sail to the
Tyrrhenian this Spring just in case Hohn's new southern-only exposure
is exploited.

Maybe this is asking a bit much, but what would you guys think of handing
me Greece this Fall, which, if I get Munich (assuming we all three agree
this is something worth doing) would give me two builds and allow me to
feel far more secure about the unpredictable M. Cho.

Manus

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Well, I'll go ahead and admit that when you asked for permission to build
F Mar, I just assumed that it was because you wanted to build two fleets.
Now that I see you only built one, and down here instead of up there, well,
I'm anxious to work some cooperative efforts with you.  I appreciate
your offer to allow me to fortify my western sea while you get the
fleets into the Atlantic, and I'll probably do so.  And I assume your
offer of support into Munich is still valid, yes?

Sorry so short; write back soon,

Manus

Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Didn't want to announce it to Russia, but I would indeed appreciate it
if you were to support me into Munich from Bohemia.  As I said, I am
more than a bit shaky vis a vis the French promise of support.

With me moving to Tyrolia this Spring and with no other army around,
I am pondering convoying back to Apulia.  Not that I think you'll
sneak across the border with that new army, but well, since I have
nothing else to do with Tunis, I may as well use it for unnecessary defense.
Let me know what your plans are, though, because if there's anything better
than what I'm thinking of doing, I'll be happy to do it.

Manus

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

Hey Cal:

Long time no talk.  What's up up there?  Need help from down here?
Let me know, please.  All intelligence much appreciated.  From one
old Mouse Trap player to another, France's southern fleet with no
northern fleet makes me wonder if you and he are in cahoots, despite
all the brouhaha about how he's given up the Channel to you (which
assumes you're at odds with each other).

Manus

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

> Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Hey Cal:
>
> Long time no talk.  What's up up there?  Need help from down here?
> Let me know, please.

Well, ya know, I muchly admit that I would just LOVE to see that little
ol' army in Venice find its way into Piedmont this turn.  I'll just
betcha I could almost guarantee Hohn would let you have Marseilles rather
than waste a unit on its defense that could be turned north in anger...
heh heh

>All intelligence much appreciated.  From one
> old Mouse Trap player to another, France's southern fleet with no
> northern fleet makes me wonder if you and he are in cahoots, despite
> all the brouhaha about how he's given up the Channel to you (which
> assumes you're at odds with each other).

Tell you what.  You ask Hohn if he's in cahoots with me and I'll betcha
you have to stand back from the raucous laughter heading back down the
bandwidth.

By the way, old chap, sorry about all the Rebel colloquialism, but I
happened to catch about 30 seconds of a Dukes of Hazzard rerun earlier
today.

Y'all take care now, ya hear?  d;-^<

King Kal

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> My A Mos was supposed to defend either Warsaw or Stp; now I have no idea
> what to do with it. I guess I could order Arm-Syr, Sev-Arm, Mos-Sev, but
> that's just so silly-looking.
>
> Tsar J

Not only that, we don't know for sure what Austria intends to do with
his armies. You might be wise to keep something in reserve.

He sure has me nervous.

Kaiser J

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

> You didn't put down what moves I'm supposed to make.  From your comment
> about me possibly holding hol (Holland?) in the Fall if you don't vacate
> Belgium, I take it I'm supposed to move F Nth-Hol this turn?  And then move
> to Belgium in the Fall
>
> This is worth contemplating.  Let me know if this is what you meant.


Actually, that was a mistake.  I meant you would hold Belgium, with me
out of there and in Burgundy. I also thought about swapping Holland with
you if need be; I just don't see the need at this point. But I do want
you to know that I am open to whatever makes this work. It's only a
matter of very little time before Russia and Austria weigh in.

What I had in mind was hol-pic, lvp-iri, lon-ech. Then, either Hohn
defends Burgundy, which allows you to take Brest, or he defends Brest,
which ensures my hol-bur. Or, as I suggested, if we assume that he opts
to hold onto centers, you can let him execute mid-bre, and your f
iri-mid succeeds.

Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn,

I really don't want to come after you.  I asked England to join me in a
northern strategy, which would have given you a free hand to move into
the Med, or whatever looked promising. Cal was not interested. Given
that, I decided I needed armies to at least put up the toughest fight
possible in case you and he were against me. I won't lie. I suggested EG
v F, but that does not mean the situation is irretrievable. I did take
note of your friendly gestures toward me. And, as you say, you really
need a friend right now.

I don't have anything specific in mind at this moment, but I did want to
convey my general perspective.

John

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Actually, that was a mistake.  I meant you would hold Belgium, with me
>out of there and in Burgundy. I also thought about swapping Holland with
>you if need be; I just don't see the need at this point. But I do want
>you to know that I am open to whatever makes this work. It's only a
>matter of very little time before Russia and Austria weigh in.
>
>What I had in mind was hol-pic, lvp-iri, lon-ech. Then, either Hohn
>defends Burgundy, which allows you to take Brest, or he defends Brest,
>which ensures my hol-bur. Or, as I suggested, if we assume that he opts
>to hold onto centers, you can let him execute mid-bre, and your f
>iri-mid succeeds.

But he'll have that fleet in Spain(SC) to bounce me. And everything hinges
on whether or not I get into Picardy.  Hohn is certainly a good tactical
player.  Given that the army in Spain is certainly headed for Gascony this
turn, he may try to outguess us by moving A Par-Pic and, if we take Burgandy
off him, just retreating to Mar.  He would then have armies in Gas, Par &
Mar to our lone army in Burgundy.

The alternative of trying to force Burgundy THIS turn would give, as a worst
case scenario (assuming he supported it from Paris), the following:

Us:  A Bel, A Mun, A Ruh, F Iri, F Eng, F Nth, F Nrg
Him: A Gas, A Par, A Bur, F Spasc, F Mid

Not a lot better perhaps, but at least we'd have a guarantee on Burgundy in
the Fall.

Best case scenarios, of course, put us in Bur or Pic this turn.

Whaddya think?

King Kal

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

> Best case scenarios, of course, put us in Bur or Pic this turn.
>
> Whaddya think?
>
> King Kal

I'm with you down to this last part. We can't try for Pic and try to
force Bur in the Spring. Your army has to do one or the other.

It's a guessing game, as always. Have you thought about forcing Mid in
the fall?

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Are you asking for Greece and also saying that you won't help with Turkey?
Or are you asking for Greece so that you may help with Turkey?

I'll tell you, without your help it's going to be a hell of a time killing
off Turkey, and speaking personally I can't afford to take a lot of time. I
have to finish that project pretty quickly or I am apt to have real trouble
in the north, trouble that I can't handle.

If you could spare even one unit, F Ion - Aeg, that would take care of my
problems, and it seems to me that you could still cover your west side. (I
don't see the idea of moving to Tyo in the hopes that Hohn will help you
into Munich, then also moving your new fleet to TySea. Is Hohn going to
like that? Maybe he doesn't have much choice.)

Tsar J
p.s. Stand by for a separate PRESS TO AI

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Are you asking for Greece and also saying that you won't help with Turkey?
> Or are you asking for Greece so that you may help with Turkey?
>
The latter.  (I want Smyrna too; ain't I a greedy sot?)

> If you could spare even one unit, F Ion - Aeg, that would take care of my
> problems, and it seems to me that you could still cover your west side.
>
Yes, I will probably move to AEG.

> (I don't see the idea of moving to Tyo in the hopes that Hohn will help you
> into Munich, then also moving your new fleet to TySea. Is Hohn going to
> like that? Maybe he doesn't have much choice.)
>
Actually, Hohn suggested I move to TYS, because he's about to act in
violation of our agreement, putting fleets in both MAO and SPA/sc.

So it seems I may have put my foot in my mouth again.  In case Austria
(likely) thinks I was asking for a gift without offering to help,
perhaps you can mollify him.  This not having enough time to conduct
proper diplomacy (work just now is busier than ever) crap is killer.  :-(

Manus

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Kaiser D,

Is Italy saying that he wants you to give him supply centers so that he can
*not* help us with Turkey? Or is he saying that he wants the centers so
that he can feel comfortable helping us with Turkey?

I want him to help us with Turkey. It's your call, but it seems rather
silly to give him a center so that he can go join in the harvest of French
centers while leaving us to bang our heads against Asia minor.

We need his fleet to dislodge the Turkish F Aeg. After that I don't think
we really need him, though it couldn't hurt. Geez, I really hope Turkey
doesn't order Bul-Gre.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in

'pouchtoo':

Dear Kaiser and Doge,

Not very much Italian help is needed for the butchering of Turkey, but some
is. Having Italy take some Austrian center so that he can move all of his
units to play in the West does not strike me as a sound plan from the
Austral point of view.

I would like Italy to commit a fleet to the attack on Turkey. Changing red
centers to green ones is a matter for the two of you to work out
yourselves, of course.

Diplomatically, I hope,
Tsar J

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

>The latter.  (I want Smyrna too; ain't I a greedy sot?)

Yes, you are, but as you know I want you to be.


>Yes, I will probably move to AEG.

Ok.


>Actually, Hohn suggested I move to TYS, because he's about to act in
>violation of our agreement, putting fleets in both MAO and SPA/sc.

So that hardly sounds like a dreaded Western Triple, then.

In light of my PRESS TO AI, why don't you explain that you always meant to
give your fleet's help against Turkey?

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

Well, I seem to have a taste for shoe-leather, don't I?  Work has
interfered with my ability to conduct proper diplomacy recently, and
I beg your indulgence.  Here's what I was trying to say.

I would like to lead France to believe I will protect my west.
However, I intend to send one fleet east to help with Turkey.
I am a fan of an Italian Smyrna.  If it works for Austria to let
a red Greece turn green, I would appreciate it, given my insecurity
about France.

Sorry so short, and sorry so much trouble.

Manus

Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> >The latter.  (I want Smyrna too; ain't I a greedy sot?)
>
> Yes, you are, but as you know I want you to be.
>
:-)

> >Actually, Hohn suggested I move to TYS, because he's about to act in
> >violation of our agreement, putting fleets in both MAO and SPA/sc.
>
> So that hardly sounds like a dreaded Western Triple, then.
>
Well, if I were in a Western Triple, I would disguise it just about
this way.  I wouldn't want a F MAR build to alarm Italy until it was
in the Mediterranean waters, so I would talk nice-nice about it even
after it showed up.

Cal, however, wrote me saying that any idea of E/F cooperation is to
laugh.  Current intelligence has an E/G vs. F, when this is the last
thing I'd have expected earlier -- we were worried about an F/G and
even an E/F, but an E/G is a surprise.

If indeed it plays out this way, I plan to fall in on the French side,
especially if I can get his help into Munich.  How are you going to
handle your two northern neighbors cooperating and theoretically growing
together?

> In light of my PRESS TO AI, why don't you explain that you always meant to
> give your fleet's help against Turkey?
>
Done.

Manus

Message from Austria to Russia and Italy in

'pouchtoo':


Gentleman,

Sorry to take so long to jump in, no email on the weekends (which I spent
playing Dip and other games, so my brain is fried (<: ).

Anyway, as to the current situation:

The English builds certainly look anti-French and tend to argue against a
Western Triple.  The French builds argue for France believing in either a
Western Triple or an EF.  The German builds are of course fairly
non-committal. The one thing I'm sure of is there is no FG vs E!

The English builds could be an elaborate subterfuge, although I don't think
it is likely.  However, even in the case that it is, there is no danger to
Italian centers this year.  France has F Por and F Mar.  That puts him three
moves away from any Italian center, thus he can not possibly make an attack
on one this year.  Based on that, I think we should stick to the original
plan and take out Turkey quickly.  That plan of course includes Italy getting
a build, whether a Turkish center or Greece would depend on the fall positions.

The real question is how to go about the attack.  I still believe that the
best attack is for Italy to order Ion - Aeg, Nap - Ion and Austria to order
Gre s Ion - Aeg.  This could fail of course if Turkey orders Bul to Gre,
but Bul will be destroyed in that case and our position will still be strong.

In addition, I think we need to look to the north.  While there is the chance
of an English stab into Stp, I think the greater threat may be German armies
to Sil and Pru.  To that end, I think it is vital that Italy move to Tyr
and Austria move to Boh.  I'm less certain about what Russia should do.
Mos - Lvn, Sev - Mos would provide a nice degree of protection, but it would
also be nice to have that southern army for attacking Turkey.  I think that
is really Jamie's call.

Please let me know if we are all set on this so I can send in orders.

Regards,
Dave
pressoff

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Jamie,

Had a great time this weekend.  Played a good game of Loeb9, very balanced,
lots of alliance shifting.  Pitt Crandlemire and I ended up in a German/
Norwegian draw so it was successful as well as fun!  Got trashed in the
next game of course (<:.

> I didn't expect E/G vs F. I don't know why, I guess I assumed Hohn would be
> the best diplomat in the opening. I'm afraid I played a role in causing that
> alignment. It's my least favorite, because I like having France strong
> later, to sandwich either E or G with me. On the other hand, this way you
> and I can work together for a long time without even having to attack Italy
> if we don't want to.
>

Actually, it opens up both possiblities rather nicely, that is, not attacking
Italy and letting him go for France, but balancing that effect with you and
I attacking Germany together, or attacking Italy, thus keeping him off of
France, which we are free to do because France will be too busy to come into
the Med.  In that case we can again work jointly against Germany.  I think
the second alternative might actually be better as I'm concerned that if
they see a solid AIR coming at them, the west might patch things up to hold
us off.

> Of course, a joint G+E could really screw me right this moment, but I have a
> good reason to expect that won't happen. A kind of ace in the hole. So I'm
> comfortable being so committed southward.
>

Obviously I don't know what your ace is, but I would expect that a real
EG would have to make a move your way sometime, there's little chance of
growth for Germany otherwise.  How do you plan to use Sev in the attack
on Turkey?  I don't see that it is going to be decisive and am beginning
to think that moving it north might be a good idea.  Speaking purely
on a "alliance as a whole" basis, I think our best move would be the
following:

Mos - Stp, Sev - Ukr, Bud - Gal, Vie - Boh

That would let you protect both Stp and Warsaw.  If Germany does move on you,
then you're in a position to counter quite well, particularly with a retreat
of Swe to Bal.  Ukr - War, Gal s Ukr - War secures it from any attack.  If
Germany does not move on you, we still have some very nice possibilities,
I can move Gal to Sil and you can actually make an attack on Norway!

I understand of course that you may not want my army in Gal.  On the other
hand, Ukr - War protects it anyway, and an attack on Rum would let you
retreat to either Bud or Ser, so outside of the fact that I think attacking
you would be a rather stupid strategic move, it would also not work well
tactically.

What do you think?

-Dave

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

The plan as outlined by Austria seems sound to me.  I would say to
go ahead and enter your orders on that basis, and I will do so myself
soon enough.

Rushed as usual.  :-(
Manus

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

We've not had much reason to talk lately, but I would like to inquire as
to whether allowing Turkey to fall so easily in the interests of world
peace. How do you view the matter?

Kaiser J

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

Germany wrote me basically saying that he views the Turkish downfall as
a bad thing.  I am thinking to respond with something like this:

   I view the matter along similar lines, and have been talking to Russia
   about a change of direction.  I don't know how far along I am yet, but
   we have proceeded to the point of mentioning places like Vienna and stuff.

This way, he won't be surprised by Ven-Tyr (a blatant violation of the
I/G/A DMZ agreement), which I agree with Dave is probably our best move.

What do you guys think?

Manus

Message from Austria to Russia and Italy in

'pouchtoo':


Duplicity is my middle name, anything that keeps the western powers from
realizing we are working together is a good thing in my book.

Dave

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>How do you plan to use Sev in the attack
>on Turkey?  I don't see that it is going to be decisive and am beginning
>to think that moving it north might be a good idea.

Yeah.
I prefer not outright *attacking* Germany. But I might move an army
'defensively'.

> Speaking purely
>on a "alliance as a whole" basis, I think our best move would be the
>following:
>
>Mos - Stp, Sev - Ukr, Bud - Gal, Vie - Boh
>
>That would let you protect both Stp and Warsaw.  If Germany does move on you,
>then you're in a position to counter quite well, particularly with a retreat
>of Swe to Bal.  Ukr - War, Gal s Ukr - War secures it from any attack.  If
>Germany does not move on you, we still have some very nice possibilities,
>I can move Gal to Sil and you can actually make an attack on Norway!

Interesting.

So we'd be moving against Germany right away.

I don't *particularly* like your army in Galicia, but it does provide a use
for that army.

It seems to me this approach might actually produce an FEG alliance. I
mean, it's so blatantly RIA, and as Manus has just pointed out we know that
E and G must be a little uneasy about the rapid destruction of Turkey. I
don't really mind RIA vs FEG, if it comes to that, but I would much, much
rather have Turkey rendered harmless before I open a major war in the
north. Otherwise I'll be torn to bits by EG, in short order. Hm. Manus's
idea of hinting to Germany that there might be a change of targets for I+R
does sound pretty smart. Except for the Vie-Boh move, it 'explains' all of
our army movements, so John wouldn't be forced to conclude that he was our
target.

I'll tell you what, I bet that Germany can't make headway against France
this year. If we wait a year, or at least a season, I don't think we lose
much and the German armies might well be committed further west. Of course,
I could move one of my extra armies (A Sev, A Mos) a little bit toward
Germany, I doubt that would alert or alarm him enough to change his plans.

I'll have to look at my map and try out a few things to have a solid idea,
though.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

I am aware of the large red presence. But I won't do anything that would
actually inflame Russo-Austrian tensions.

I guess I was planning to let Italy take care of any Austrian threat. I
don't want Manus trying to cash in on France's problems, I'm hoping he'll
be hanging around in the east and providing something for Austria to think
about.

My aim, as always, is not to have to fight on two fronts.

I may as well broach this topic: since you don't have fleets, England is
going to have free rei(g)n in the northern seas pretty soon, unless I start
building fleets up there. I loathe the idea. It will make Cal want to
attack me instead of you, since you'd be virtually no threat to him without
fleets of your own. Your thoughts on this subject?

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Hello!

> We've not had much reason to talk lately, but I would like to inquire as
> to whether allowing Turkey to fall so easily in the interests of world
> peace. How do you view the matter?
>
I view the matter along similar lines, and have been talking to Russia
about a change of direction.  I don't know how far along I am yet, but
we have proceeded to the point of mentioning places like Vienna and stuff.

You look to have a solid alliance with Cal (or do I read things wrong?)
What are your ambitions vis a vis your west, and how, if at all, could
you use my help?

Sorry so short -- horrible busy at work,
Manus

Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in

'pouchtoo':

I certainly like Ven-Tyo. Vie-Boh makes a good combination, but if part of
the plan is to keep the northerners in the dark, is that the best way to do
it?

I am worried about driving them into a Triple, something I don't see them
coming to on their own. E and G together without F as a target looks really
awful to me, I doubt that Austria and Italy could provide enough of a
distraction to prevent those Frost Giants from removing me from Sweden and
then roughing me up in Stp. Brrrr.

To my mind, we've got a delicate balance in the north at the moment and
though I wouldn't at all mind seeing Italy take Munich, I hope we won't
overplay our hand and produce exactly the monster we're trying to avoid.

Tsar J

Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in

'pouchtoo':

If indeed France is all by his lonesome now (I am asking Germany for more
info on his own plans), then I think we don't need to worry about the triple
as long as we cultivate good relations with France.  France was the first
person to mention an Italian Munich, and I am hoping to get his support for
it (Austria's from Bohemia, though, would be nice and perhaps even necessary).
If we make it clear to France that he can either be in a Western Triple
(but, by everyone's assessment at least, he'd need to talk the legs off a
couple of chairs to have a hope of that) or a ready-made F/A/I/R alliance,
I imagine he will stick to us like glue.

Manus

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> I am aware of the large red presence. But I won't do anything that would
> actually inflame Russo-Austrian tensions.
>
> I guess I was planning to let Italy take care of any Austrian threat. I
> don't want Manus trying to cash in on France's problems, I'm hoping he'll
> be hanging around in the east and providing something for Austria to think
> about.

I would hope Italy pays attention to the east as well. I wonder, though,
if he is capable of containing Austria without Russian help. And I don't
see how he can have that help as long as you depend on Austria to
execute a swift Turkish campaign. Italy does have the ability to
stonewall for a long time, especially in that Austria built A Trieste.
It may be some time before he has another opportunity to float any
ships. Still, at some point, Russia must act.


>
> My aim, as always, is not to have to fight on two fronts.

A wise policy.

>
> I may as well broach this topic: since you don't have fleets, England is
> going to have free rei(g)n in the northern seas pretty soon, unless I start
> building fleets up there. I loathe the idea. It will make Cal want to
> attack me instead of you, since you'd be virtually no threat to him without
> fleets of your own. Your thoughts on this subject?

You are asking a rather odd question. It seems to imply you wish for me
to antagonize England so he will attack me instead of you. Be that as it
may, my wish is that England devote his resources to taking out France.
Looking over the board shows me that defeating a well-led France is no
easy matter. A good tactician such as Hohn can hold us off for several
moves, perhaps long enough to induce, say, Austria, to come to his
rescue. In that light, I prefer that he stay out of trouble in the north
and concentrate on France. After that, anything is possible.

Kaiser Jeep

Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

> I view the matter along similar lines, and have been talking to Russia
> about a change of direction.  I don't know how far along I am yet, but
> we have proceeded to the point of mentioning places like Vienna and stuff.

 Unfortunately, word from Moscow is that Tsar J wants no trouble with
Austria.  We may have to do more to persuade him that Vienna is a threat
to his very tsarness.

>
> You look to have a solid alliance with Cal (or do I read things wrong?)
> What are your ambitions vis a vis your west, and how, if at all, could
> you use my help?

First indications are that England shares Germany's desire to deter
French aggression. At this point, my view is that we have adequate
forces to do the job. But I will bear in mind your generous offer.

Please let me know if Germany can do anything to secure Italy's
legitimate interests in Europe.

Kaiser Jeep

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Kaiser Jeep,

>I would hope Italy pays attention to the east as well. I wonder, though,
>if he is capable of containing Austria without Russian help. And I don't
>see how he can have that help as long as you depend on Austria to
>execute a swift Turkish campaign. Italy does have the ability to
>stonewall for a long time, especially in that Austria built A Trieste.
>It may be some time before he has another opportunity to float any
>ships. Still, at some point, Russia must act.

Yyyyyyes.

I'm a little confused.
It seems as though you have just told me that unless Russia eventually
attacks Austria, Austria will have a pretty good game. While I certainly
agree with that assessment, it is not the sort of thing that you would
bother to mention to me.

Listen, I am aware that you would prefer not to see Turkey disappear
rapidly. On this point our interests do not agree! I hope that they will
agree on other points.


>> I may as well broach this topic: since you don't have fleets, England is
>> going to have free rei(g)n in the northern seas pretty soon, unless I start
>> building fleets up there. I loathe the idea. It will make Cal want to
>> attack me instead of you, since you'd be virtually no threat to him without
>> fleets of your own. Your thoughts on this subject?
>
>You are asking a rather odd question. It seems to imply you wish for me
>to antagonize England so he will attack me instead of you.

Not exactly. Something similar to that.
I was pointing out that I am in a position in which I might just *have* to
antagonize England, with the result that he will attack me instead of you.
Quite possibly you wanted to put me in this position! And possibly you have
succeeded. I asked only for your thoughts on the subject.

> Be that as it
>may, my wish is that England devote his resources to taking out France.
>Looking over the board shows me that defeating a well-led France is no
>easy matter. A good tactician such as Hohn can hold us off for several
>moves, perhaps long enough to induce, say, Austria, to come to his
>rescue.

Or to have me come to his rescue, is that the implication? He's already
asked me. I demured with profuse apologies. There is about as much chance
of that happening as there is of your coming to Turkey's rescue. (I hope. I
hope there isn't a much bigger chance of your coming to Turkey's rescue.)


> In that light, I prefer that he stay out of trouble in the north
>and concentrate on France. After that, anything is possible.

Ok, I think I get your drift.

We're playing similar games, in a way. We each have a tough victim and a
pretty good ally. We'll each have to worry about our pretty good ally
sometime in the next few years, but we each prefer to stick with the ally
for now. Each of us has a pretty good ally who could potentially cause a
lot of trouble for the other of us. So maybe in the next year or so we can
try to do something to break this logjam.

Eliminate France and Turkey, then worry about Austria and England. Right?

Tsar J

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Eliminate France and Turkey, then worry about Austria and England. Right?
>
> Tsar J

That's about the size of it. I'm just worried that Austria will have
enough units to give me fits while also helping finish off the Sultan.
So my difficulty is that my ally will pose a problem soon, and your ally
will also pose a problem for ME.

The woes of playing Germany, I guess.

Kaiser Jeep

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Now for a suggestion to make you REALLY uncomfortable (<:

I go to Gal as mentioned previously, but NOT to Boh.  This
positions me to support you to War if needed.  It also makes
the world think that I'm going for the opportunistic grab
(you'll get lots of compliments on your brilliant covering move
to Ukraine (<: ).  In the fall, there are several options.  I
can move to Sil and Boh (assuming I did Vie - Gal, Tri - Vie)
(I'll probably get lots of deriding remarks for not being smart
enough to move Tri to Ser, which is part of your backup that I'm
not setting you up).  Or or course I could then just go home
again (leading to more accolades for you for your brilliant
diplomacy).

The other option is that we could remove any worries about an
AIR by actually removing any chance of an AIR.  I could be in
Ven in either the Spring or the Fall.

I'm not advocating any of these approaches at the moment, just
throwing out things for us to consider.

Looking forward to your own thoughts on it.

-Dave

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>
>> Best case scenarios, of course, put us in Bur or Pic this turn.
>>
>> Whaddya think?
>>
>> King Kal
>
>I'm with you down to this last part. We can't try for Pic and try to
>force Bur in the Spring. Your army has to do one or the other.
>
>It's a guessing game, as always. Have you thought about forcing Mid in
>the fall?

Yes, I have, but he'll have support from Spain(sc).  If he absolutely needs
the fleet in Mid to move to Brest, I'll certainly go for it, but I have to
see the results first obviously.

I think we should try the move to Pic this turn along with your move to
Belgium.  Both of the plans we discussed have similar upsides, but this one
shows the least downside.  Therefore:

England             Germany

a bel-pic           a kie-ruh
f lon-eng           a mun s a kie-ruh
f nth s a hol-bel   a hol-bel
f lpl-iri           f den h
f nwy-nrg           a ber-kie(?)

What do you think?

King Kal

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

>
> England             Germany
>
> a bel-pic           a kie-ruh
> f lon-eng           a mun s a kie-ruh
> f nth s a hol-bel   a hol-bel
> f lpl-iri           f den h
> f nwy-nrg           a ber-kie(?)
>
> What do you think?


I was thinking very much along the same lines. This morning, I looked at
the board for a while.  I noticed that if we go for bur while France
orders par-pic to block, he'd be in a strong position. He could cover
every center and support bre. We'd gain from having a ruh, but mostly
we'd have to wait for your fleet to come around. So I endorse the above
orders, even though I think Hohn will order par-pic. I think we'll be in
better position.

I did intend ber-kie. I can easily recover if Russia moves my way, but
we've been in communication and I don't anticipate it. He also wants to
stay out of conflict with you. France, of course, has asked Russia to
rescue him, but Tsar J claims to have refused.

Just in case, I thought I might order den-swe, and tell Russia to order
swe-den. That would pin both fleets and keep everyone honest.

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Gentle Tsar Jamie
Just a quick note to pass along this tidbit:  Germany is quite content to
have a peaceful eastern border so you have no fears there.  He told me about
his offer to you of having your northern fleets bounce against each other
and that seems to be quite legit as well.

Anything new on your end?

King Kal

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>>
>> England             Germany
>>
>> a bel-pic           a kie-ruh
>> f lon-eng           a mun s a kie-ruh
>> f nth s a hol-bel   a hol-bel
>> f lpl-iri           f den h
>> f nwy-nrg           a ber-kie(?)
>>
>> What do you think?
>
>
>I was thinking very much along the same lines. This morning, I looked at
>the board for a while.  I noticed that if we go for bur while France
>orders par-pic to block, he'd be in a strong position. He could cover
>every center and support bre. We'd gain from having a ruh, but mostly
>we'd have to wait for your fleet to come around. So I endorse the above
>orders, even though I think Hohn will order par-pic. I think we'll be in
>better position.
>
>I did intend ber-kie. I can easily recover if Russia moves my way, but
>we've been in communication and I don't anticipate it. He also wants to
>stay out of conflict with you. France, of course, has asked Russia to
>rescue him, but Tsar J claims to have refused.
>
>Just in case, I thought I might order den-swe, and tell Russia to order
>swe-den. That would pin both fleets and keep everyone honest.

Okay, I have sent in the above orders.  Now we just wait and see.  :)

King Kal

Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':

Well, I have gotten mail from England and Germany both, and I guess,
well, I guess you're not exactly their best friend.  So, since you may
need one, you can count on me.  With your help (right?) I'll be in Munich
at the end of the year, making it easy for us to cooperate.

Manus

Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

I don't know what to make of England's builds, but I'm not convinced =
that they are NECESSARILY anti-French.  It just seems like a much more =
difficult road to take.  Even if they are anti-French, I think Cal will =
come to rue the day.

Toward the same end, I don't believe Russia's position was seriously =
damaged by the builds.  Now, if Austria goes to Gal this turn and gets =
an unopposed shot at War, things will be different.  However, I believe =
the situation is much more favorable for Austria to partner with Russia =
more completely by stabbing you.  He simply forces his way into Tyl and =
takes Ven.  Meanwhile, he also gets Bul and Russia gets one of my dots.  =
A very good and plausible scenario.

I propose the following:  A Tun-Gre, A Ven-Tri, F Nap-Apu, F Ion C A =
Tun-Gre.  I will use my units to support you in the best way possible, =
based on the info you gather from R/A.  Why Ven-Tri?  In case Austria =
gets sloppy or does something else.  What else is there?  A Ven-Tyl is a =
possibility, but Austria is likely to support his move.

I know your inclination is to go with R/A, but you can trust me--I need =
an ally.  They, on the other hand do not need your help to take me down. =
 Play it out on your own, if you don't believe me.  Without any =
assistance from you, they can eliminate me in two years.  With your =
help, it takes two years.  Why should they cut you in?

Take care,

Steve

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

You're just full of exciting ideas, huh?

They aren't bad ideas. But what's wrong with the simpler approach, just go
get Turkey and worry about Germany later? We have a big advantage. We'll
kill Turkey quickly, Germany and England will struggle against France for
much longer.

Germany is already in quite a state, worrying (allegedly) about your
potential to steamroll him before he can eliminate his French enemy. (I
think he is at least as worried about my potential, but he doesn't tell me
that.)

I'm trying to see the big picture, and the one in which you and I get rid
of Turkey and then start to fan out (sort of the way RT would fan out if
there were a Juggernaut) from the southeast corner, possibly including
Italy in the Med., or possibly having you replace Italy, that big picture
looks very nice. I'm having trouble seeing any advantages, in the long run,
of striking out in all directions now.

But you know my conservative tendencies. Maybe I'm missing some golden
opportunity?

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> They aren't bad ideas. But what's wrong with the simpler approach, just go
> get Turkey and worry about Germany later?

Nothing.

> But you know my conservative tendencies. Maybe I'm missing some golden
> opportunity?
>
Not necessarily.  Remember at the beginning I said I have flamboyant
tendencies which is why I thought we'd work well together.  This way
we consider all sorts of approaches and hopefully arrive at the best.
There are strong reasons for not going at Germany right now as you have
said, and there is really no risk to me as all it means is that my
armies stay home and can protect my centers.  I throw out ideas for
consideration, and I certainly have no problem with you saying, "Whoa,
that's too much too soon", in fact, I'm relying on you to do that!

That said, where does it leave us for this turn?  The moves I'm certain
of (I hope (<: ) are Ser -> Bul, Rum s Ser -> Bul, Gre s Ion -> Aeg
You make the choice on Bla and Arm.  At this point I think you prefer
that I not go to Boh and I'm okay with that.  What about Gal?  It has
defensive merit, it has potential for making the west think we are at
odds, at least for one turn, and it need not lead to an attack on Germany,
it can simply be pulled back.  Otherwise, I guess my armies all just
sit in Austria.

Let me know, I'm obviously not going to go to Gal unless you want me to.

Regards,
Dave

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal,

Actually, Kaiser Jeep hasn't suggested that he and I bounce our fleets. But
I'd be happy to do it (just don't inadvertantly order F Nwy S Den-Swe!).

The diplomacy business down south is rather complicated and, in my opinion,
not very important. Basically, Italy and Austria have units they aren't
using against Turkey, and they're trying to decide what to do with them
without scaring each other (or me).

Germany has expressed concerns to me that Austria might go and get him. I
sympathize. But better him than me.

More and more I am thinking that you are in a really good spot. When I
envisage teaming up with you openly later, I feel like I'm in a good spot
too :)

Listen, do you object to Mos-Stp? I don't know whether I want to do it or
not. (I'd better decide soon, huh?) You could have Germany keep ordering
Den-Swe, so there'd be no threat from me. I just get kind of uncomfortable
with my home center unguarded and somebody (even my great buddy) sitting
next to it.

Tsar J

Message from France to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Jamie,

> Message from [email protected] as Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Holy cow.
> E/G vs F was the one alignment I had ruled out!

Me too, unfortunately. :-(

> I don't know what I can do, personally. I'll certainly move the A
> Mos to either Stp, providing a little distraction for England, or to
> Warsaw, making Germany think about keeping a little land force to
> the east. And I'll be trying to get either Austria or Italy or both
> to put something up near Munich.

I think the bolstering of your north is more effective, personally; I
don't know John will be deterred by one army in WAR.  Having units in
SWE/STP for Fall will definitely make Cal think twice, though, I
think.  And if they boot you out, hmm, well, I'm not sure.  One bridge
at a time, perhaps?

> But to be honest, I'm a little scared of G/E myself and wouldn't want them
> to, say, kick me out of Sweden and take Stp....
> Well, there's plenty of diplomacy time to work on your problem.

Indeed.  I'm hoping I can pull something off, but I'm skeptical; this
is especially true because time is scarce for me these days.  Bleah.

Hohn

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> >Well, I suppose there's no point going in for half-measures, and
> >all... ;-)
>
> "Everything to excess!  Moderation is for monks!"
> (Robert Heinlein in "Time Enough For Love"  Words to live by...:) )
>
> >Oh well.  You can rest assured that I will happily hand Manus Iberia
> >before seeing you there.  And if you're working with John as it
> >appears, I suspect even he will find France quite defensible against
> >ground invasion.
> >Let me know if you ever wish to change your mind.
>
> Will do, and we both know that's it's always possible in this game.  FWIW,
> this was the best way to stop John from building a fleet.  He was waiting
> for some kind of committment from one of us and I guess he got it from me
> first.  Also, some who shall remain nameless (damn his Russianness) told me
> he had heard you were building two fleets.  I couldn't see him, as a
> Russian, wanting to force an E/G, so I decided against taking a chance.
> Ah well, maybe it'll be your turn next.  One day we'll have a chance to be
> gamelong allies! ("Fat chance" mutters Hohn...)    d:-})

OK, I've thought about it a lot.  And I think your best bet is still
to go with me.

"He's lost his mind," you say.  I hope that after my pitch, you will
see the method to my madness.

There is no way you will be able to take a center from me this turn.
None.  Germany won't either.  We'll all be entrenched, and meanwhile,
Manus will have my open invitation to waltz into my South.  Meanwhile,
Jamie sits in the east, and he can't help but be uncomfortable with th
EG.  Meanwhile, Turkey is going down quickly, much more quickly than I
will, I posit, and the resulting secure corner will mean that you and
Germany will face real opposition sooner than you can get reorganized
to face that threat.

You know I am trustworthy.  More importantly, you know I am desperate
for an ally, and that accordingly, I would not stab you any time soon,
even though you stabbed me first.

So I propose this:

LVP-CLY
NTH-HEL
LON-NTH
NWY-??? (depending on how you work the stab I propose, and your
communications with John prior to the stab I propose, you might be
able to get SWE or STP, or lull John out of position)
BEL S BUR-RUH

You will be guaranteed to take HOL in Fall.  That's one more center,
one more build to make you secure, than you will have if you go
against me.

The Fall moves are powerful as well, if I see you pull off.  I can
take MID-WES, and SPA(sc)-GOL, and put immediate, surprise pressure on
Manus.  CLY can reinforce NWY before any reasonable forces by Germany
(even working with Russia, if that happens) can be brought to bear.
HOL will be squished, and you'll have a LOCK on DEN/KIE by the
following year.

To sweeten the deal, I will be content to take only MUN from the
German pie; all coastal provinces, including BEL, will be yours.  I
cede them readily as a bargaining chip, if you will leave off of
attacking me.

What do you think, Cal?  It will sure surprise the hell out of
_everyone_, and I think we will both be in strong positions as a
result.  Or you can continue on your current path, and I can promise
you that I will hurl everything I can to try to stop _you_, in
particular, from taking any of my centers.  I will let Manus, and yes,
even John, into my centers before willingly ceding one to you.  That's
because I viewed you as my primary ally, and therefore your stab is
the most onerous to me.  Perhaps you'll take BRE; but then you'll be
facing a Mediterranean wall in the form of Italian units, and a
Germany perhaps flush with land conquests from me and looking for
another enemy.

I'll go one better: I promise never to build a fleet in BRE, never to
station a unit in MID, and to build only as many fleets in MAR as I
need to fight Manus.

Please, just think about it, Cal.  I think it's a more than fair
offer, and that it's a bold move which will net you more gain than you
attacking me.  John will be caught completely off-guard, and will not
be prepared to defend himself.

Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

Hohn

Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Well, I have gotten mail from England and Germany both, and I guess,
> well, I guess you're not exactly their best friend.  So, since you may
> need one, you can count on me.  With your help (right?) I'll be in Munich
> at the end of the year, making it easy for us to cooperate.

You have my full support wherever you want it, Manus.  Many thanks for
your assistance.

Will you be able to send one of your fleets west to help me?  Or is
Austria willing to throw a unit against Germany?  Please let me know.
Thanks!

Desperately Yours,
Hohn

Message from France to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Wouldn't suppose you'd be interested in throwing VIE-BOH in
conjunction with a possible Italian VEN-TYR, by chance?  I don't know
what I can offer you, except to say that I will support any joint
moves against Germany completely, and that I will not stake any claims
to any German centers; they're all yours, if you want them. ;-)

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,
Hohn

Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Along those lines, Cal tells me that you might like to bounce Den-Swe,
> Swe-Den. That's ok with me, as long as England doesn't order Nwy S Den-Swe
> 'by mistake'. So, did you want to do that?


Yes. Cal will not mistakenly support me into sweden. He wants to leave
Norway, and I thought the mutual bounce would be a good way of helping
him do that.

You are also correct that England could well pose problems for you. I
suppose this means we need to work together to keep both our allies from
getting out of hand.

Kaiser Jeep

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Oh all right, since you have your heart set on some tricky manouever or
other, go ahead and move to Galicia. I'll look forward to seeing my 'R'
move leftward in the observers' little rating charts next season....


Tsar J

Message from France to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Steve,

> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Pretty weird builds by England.  Is everyone right?  Has Cal really =
> stabbed?

Cal has really stabbed.

> I don't understand Cal's maneuver.

That makes two of us, bud. ;-)

> It doesn't figure to be =
> very effective.  If Italy jumps in you're in real trouble, but so is he! =
>  The Austrian could waltz down the boot.  Unfortunately, I was a bit too =
> trusting, so now I fight to hang on...

I'd really appreciate it if you would, as a "neutral bystander", give
Cal your thoughts about how silly his stab of me is.  Maybe if enough
people tell him, he'll come to his senses. :-)

Anything I can do for you?

Hohn

Message from Turkey to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn,

Pretty weird builds by England.  Is everyone right?  Has Cal really =
stabbed?  I don't understand Cal's maneuver.  It doesn't figure to be =
very effective.  If Italy jumps in you're in real trouble, but so is he! =
 The Austrian could waltz down the boot.  Unfortunately, I was a bit too =
trusting, so now I fight to hang on...

Steve

Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Kaiser Jeep,

>I'm just worried that Austria will have
>enough units to give me fits while also helping finish off the Sultan.
>So my difficulty is that my ally will pose a problem soon, and your ally
>will also pose a problem for ME.

But your ally might also pose a problem for ME. And mine might too.

Still, you're right about the timing, I guess. I have a good solution for
you: stay on my good side!

Along those lines, Cal tells me that you might like to bounce Den-Swe,
Swe-Den. That's ok with me, as long as England doesn't order Nwy S Den-Swe
'by mistake'. So, did you want to do that?

Tsar J

Message from Turkey to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Dave,

I know you know this, but I want to mention it anyway.  If I support you
into Rum, you'll get it.  Were you to also send Vie-Gal, that would put you
in an excellent position.  I am willing to offer and follow through on this
and stick with you.  How long can a 3-way alliance which has only 4 dots to
divvy up stay together?  And, because of your allies positioning, you would
have to defeat Russia on your own if you stay with Italy.  On the other
hand, if you stick with Russia, who's got the fleets?  I guarantee you R and
I are mulling these things over as well.  You may very well be the meat for
an R-I sandwich.

Steve

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Oh all right, since you have your heart set on some tricky manouever or
> other, go ahead and move to Galicia. I'll look forward to seeing my 'R'
> move leftward in the observers' little rating charts next season....
>

Whoops.  Please do not get me wrong here.  I don't have my heart set on
doing any of these moves, although it does seem odd to me to order
Tri, Bud and Vie to all hold!  On the other hand, I certainly do NOT
want to drag any kind of reluctant acceptance out of you that you are
going to resent later.  I do think there are some advantages to allaying
Germany's fears with the move, but the most important goal for me right
now is to make sure you're comfortable with our alliance. I don't want
I/R coming my way!  I am trying to strike a balance between the two
extremes of doing too much, and thus forging an opposing alliance, and
doing too little, and thus squandering the lead that we have now.
Gal has little tactical value unless Germany really does attack you, but
it may have a fair bit of Diplomatic value.  Do you agree, or are you
just humouring me to get me to shut up (<:.

On the western front, I've just received a request from France that I move
to Boh and help Italy attack Germany!  This does tend to indicate that
there is not a Western Triple.

-Dave

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

If I were going to resent it later I wouldn't agree to it now.


> Do you agree, or are you
>just humouring me to get me to shut up (<:.

Oooooh, do I have to choose?

>On the western front, I've just received a request from France that I move
>to Boh and help Italy attack Germany!  This does tend to indicate that
>there is not a Western Triple.

It does.

Listen, I'll be away tomorrow, so don't be concerned if I don't answer you
until Friday, ok?

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> > Do you agree, or are you
> >just humouring me to get me to shut up (<:.
>
> Oooooh, do I have to choose?
>
Personally, I like your sense of humor.  Keep it up.  If it drives away
certain observers, well, we're better off without them.

> Listen, I'll be away tomorrow, so don't be concerned if I don't answer you
> until Friday, ok?
>
Check.

Kaiser D.

Message from Austria to France in 'pouchtoo':

>
> Wouldn't suppose you'd be interested in throwing VIE-BOH in
> conjunction with a possible Italian VEN-TYR, by chance?  I don't know
> what I can offer you, except to say that I will support any joint
> moves against Germany completely, and that I will not stake any claims
> to any German centers; they're all yours, if you want them. ;-)
>
At this point, you wouldn't suppose correctly (<:.  At this point I'm not
quite ready to extend myself into Germany, there's Italy to the west and
Russia to the east and Turkey still down there in the south.  However,
if things go reasonably this turn I would be willing to consider such
a move in the fall or the next spring.  While I know you'd prefer it sooner,
it works a bit better for me as it allows Germany to commit farther to
the west, thus leaving less to face me.  Rest assurred however that seeing
France destroyed is not in my plans (at least not right now (<: )

Dave

Message from Austria to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Hi Steve,

I'm definitely aware of the possibility of the R/I, and I have not written
you off.  Acting against Russia is a serious possibility, although I'm not
willing to commit to doing it for certain at this point.  Having you offer
the support, used or not, would certainly be a solid sign that you will stick
by your offer.  I've always preferred a fall stab, but I must admit that
Gal is tempting.  Lots of ideas still flying around in my head right now,
but your support would make the move on Russia more tempting!

-Dave

Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Greetings Kaiser of the north,

It has come to my attention (these people will gossip, won't they?)
that you are concerned about my making a move north against you.  While
promises can of course be broken, I give you my word that I have no
intention of moving north this turn.  The reputation of Hohn precedes
him and I see nothing to dislike in you and King Cal taking him down a
couple of notches.  I've got plenty to do here in the south without
running another front against you, that would just stretch me out and
make me an even more tempting target for R and I.

Regards,
Kaiser Dave

Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

My, this game must have a paucity of juicy gossip of my idle thoughts
reached you so quickly. It's good to hear my fears were unfounded. I
trust you recognize that my worries also indicate my complete lack of
interest in involving myself to the south. May Austria live long and
prosper. Perhaps we can find something to work on together in the near
future.

Kaiser J

Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>
> My, this game must have a paucity of juicy gossip of my idle thoughts
> reached you so quickly. It's good to hear my fears were unfounded. I
> trust you recognize that my worries also indicate my complete lack of
> interest in involving myself to the south. May Austria live long and
> prosper. Perhaps we can find something to work on together in the near
> future.
>
For guys who are busy at work, they sure can spew out a lot of messages (<:.

As to the future, my embassy is always open and any ideas are welcome.
The biggest concern with an EG is of course that you not let England get
too great a stranglehold on the seas, or you will be locked into the
alliance in spite of yourself.  Much as I face with my Italian neighbor,
altough it is easier for me as I can reach him by land.  See if you can't
squeeze justification for another fleet build in there sometime soon.

Best regards,
Kaiser D

Message from Turkey to France in 'pouchtoo':

Hohn,

>I'd really appreciate it if you would, as a "neutral bystander", give
>Cal your thoughts about how silly his stab of me is.  Maybe if enough
>people tell him, he'll come to his senses. :-)

Consider it done.
>
>Anything I can do for you?

Yeah, put your ear to the ground and tell me which way the attack's coming.
I'm working on Austria to attack Russia, Italy to attack Austria and Russia
to be paranoid of everyone.  ANY info you can give me would be most
appreciated.

Steve

Message from Turkey to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Hello Dave,


>I'm definitely aware of the possibility of the R/I, and I have not written
>you off.  Acting against Russia is a serious possibility, although I'm not
>willing to commit to doing it for certain at this point.  Having you offer
>the support, used or not, would certainly be a solid sign that you will
stick
>by your offer.  I've always preferred a fall stab, but I must admit that
>Gal is tempting.  Lots of ideas still flying around in my head right now,
>but your support would make the move on Russia more tempting!


I understand your reluctance to commit, and I am fairly desperate, but I
won't promise support unless you commit to needing it.  You know it will
work, but you're not sure of the ramifications.  Well, Russia's intentions
are obvious.  As he sends more units south, he'll have fewer to defend
himself.  And as it appears that E/G are together, it will be difficult for
R to defend both STP and War with A Mos.

I remain your hopeful servant,

Steve

Message from Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':

King Kal,

Well, this has certainly been everything I could have expected... and =
less.  I am hurtin' for certain!

So, whaddaya say?  Are you going to snake STP?  You don't have to tell =
me, just do it!  I was a bit surprised by your builds.  Isn't it going =
to be difficult to get France?  Certainly F Lon-Eng and A Bel-Pic would =
give you a shot at Bre, but you have to turn your back on Germany.  =
Wouldn't a continued attack on Germany have been easier?  I'd love to =
know how he turned you around.

Your highness, if there's any distraction you can provide to the tsar, =
it would be eternally appreciated.

Steve

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signon tpouchtoo =
jcalvin
press to e
 
King Kal,
 
Well, this has certainly been =
everything I could=20
have expected... and less.  I am hurtin' for certain!
 
So, whaddaya say?  Are you =
going to snake=20
STP?  You don't have to tell me, just do it!  I was a bit =
surprised by=20
your builds.  Isn't it going to be difficult to get France?  =
Certainly=20
F Lon-Eng and A Bel-Pic would give you a shot at Bre, but you have to =
turn your=20
back on Germany.  Wouldn't a continued attack on Germany have been=20
easier?  I'd love to know how he turned you around.
 
Your highness, if there's any =
distraction you=20
can provide to the tsar, it would be eternally appreciated.
 
Steve

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Message from Turkey to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

Your Tsarness,

Well, the peanut gallery thinks that you're in a bit of a bind.  I'm =
willing to allow you to redeploy your troops to their more natural =
northern positions to defend against E/G/A.  I'm willing to forgive and =
forget 'cause that's just the kind of guy I am.

I remain your hopeful servant,

Sultan Steve

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signon tpouchtoo =
jcalvin
press to r
 
Your Tsarness,
 
Well, the peanut gallery thinks that =
you're in a=20
bit of a bind.  I'm willing to allow you to redeploy your troops to =
their=20
more natural northern positions to defend against E/G/A.  I'm =
willing to=20
forgive and forget 'cause that's just the kind of guy I am.
 
I remain your hopeful =
servant,
 
Sultan =
Steve

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Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Manus,

I was rethinking the situation re France today. Germany and England can
indeed finish off France, but doing so would take a long time. And the
result would be a very powerful England without much to show for
Germany. So if you are interested in poking an army into Piedmont, and
maybe even a fleet in the Gulf, I would not oppose you. Now, I will
protest the action and disavow any knowledge of it to my English friend,
who still seems to harbor the idea that we can finish France off quickly
without help. But just to let you know, if you are not already committed
to the east, Germany would not object to an Italian unit in Marseilles.

This message will self-destruct in 10 seconds.

Kaiser J

Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

> As to the future, my embassy is always open and any ideas are welcome.
> The biggest concern with an EG is of course that you not let England get
> too great a stranglehold on the seas, or you will be locked into the
> alliance in spite of yourself.  Much as I face with my Italian neighbor,
> altough it is easier for me as I can reach him by land.  See if you can't
> squeeze justification for another fleet build in there sometime soon.

I have been giving considerable thought to exactly this problem. I have
some ideas.

If things develop along the lines we see so far, two corner powers will
be gone, leaving Russia and England on top. The central powers will have
to get it together, or they will pick us off one by one. Therefore, I
hope peace prevails between Italy and Austria, at least for a couple of
years, until we see how this shakes out.

Kaiser J

Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

Well, when it rains, it pours.  Vienna, Marseilles, Greece -- everyone wants
to help the little green man.  Wow.  Well, I don't know if I can do Piedmont
(at least not right away), but maybe a fleet can start to slip westward....

BTW, that self-destructing message really messed up my screen.

Jim Phelps

Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>
> I have been giving considerable thought to exactly this problem. I have
> some ideas.
>
> If things develop along the lines we see so far, two corner powers will
> be gone, leaving Russia and England on top. The central powers will have
> to get it together, or they will pick us off one by one. Therefore, I
> hope peace prevails between Italy and Austria, at least for a couple of
> years, until we see how this shakes out.
>

Yes, I am far more worried about Russia than I am about Italy.  Of course,
one way to reduce the threat of E and R is to have them fight each other.
Should we be able to arrange that we can let them hit each other while you
and I pick up the lions share from Italy and France.  I include France here
because France is a tough enough nut to crack, especially with Hohn playing
it, that I expect it will long outlast Turkey.  It would take some careful
timing, but an optimal scenario would have Russia and England starting to
mix it up in the north while Italy moves on France.  When he's committed,
far enough to mess up the French defenses, I move on Italy, leaving you
to pick up the French remnants.  Then we have a 4 power game with you and
having a good history of cooperation, all of it under the table where the
rest can't see it.  Any English outposts on the continent would be
vulnerable to you, and I'd be well positioned to move on Russia.

Of course, that's far down the road, and no plan ever survives the first
few minutes of battle, but it's a scenario that could work out well for
us.  The key is that both of us take care to not get into a postion where
we are locked into our alliances with E and R.  If we do, we are going to
be the meat in the middle of the sandwich!

Happy hunting, send me a case or two of Bordeaux when you get there (<:.

Kaiser D

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

> I really don't want to come after you.  I asked England to join me in a
> northern strategy, which would have given you a free hand to move into
> the Med, or whatever looked promising. Cal was not interested. Given
> that, I decided I needed armies to at least put up the toughest fight
> possible in case you and he were against me. I won't lie. I suggested EG
> v F, but that does not mean the situation is irretrievable. I did take
> note of your friendly gestures toward me. And, as you say, you really
> need a friend right now.
> I don't have anything specific in mind at this moment, but I did want to
> convey my general perspective.

I'll tell you what.

I will support you HOL-BEL this turn.  I will also forever cede BEL to
you.  Meanwhile, I will send PAR-PIC, while you send KIE (or MUN, but
I suspect you won't be comfortable doing that; just send one of them,
don't tell me which one) to RUH.  Pop goes the English army.  I will
obviously also be moving my fleets into position.  With your build in
BEL, you can build a fleet, and if you can work with Russia, perhaps
you can force another disband by England if NWY can fall this year.

Please let me know what you think.  We can have a safe corner by
eliminating England, and we can work outward from there.  I think it's
a strong alliance, even situated as we are.

Take care,
Hohn

Message from Russia to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Esteemed Enemy,

So far I am not overly impressed by the peanut gallery.
You may be right about E/G/A, but I'm afraid I'm going to continue with the
program.

I will admit that I'm a little groggy right this moment, maybe not thinking
too clearly.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>Personally, I like your sense of humor.  Keep it up.  If it drives away
>certain observers, well, we're better off without them.

:)
Not Jim-Bob Burgess, he's very thick-skinned.

My secret is that I try to be entertaining so that others will prefer not
to eliminate me. If I'm eliminated, no more entertainment. Keep it in mind.

>> Listen, I'll be away tomorrow, so don't be concerned if I don't answer you
>> until Friday, ok?
>>
>Check.

Don't know what I was thinking. Friday? Anyway, I'm back. I took my
children skiing today, it was extremely exhausting, and I'm a little
light-headed at the moment.

Sultan Steve finally tried to get back in my good graces by offering his
help against the E/G/A alliance that is obviously forming. I'll just let
you guess what my response was. (I try not to insult an enemy when he's
down.) Anyway, I was glad to see it, since it presumably means he hasn't
been successful in winning other neighbors over to his cause.


Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King Kal,
>
>Actually, Kaiser Jeep hasn't suggested that he and I bounce our fleets. But
>I'd be happy to do it (just don't inadvertantly order F Nwy S Den-Swe!).


Heh heh, I promise, but see further on.

>The diplomacy business down south is rather complicated and, in my opinion,
>not very important. Basically, Italy and Austria have units they aren't
>using against Turkey, and they're trying to decide what to do with them
>without scaring each other (or me).
>
>Germany has expressed concerns to me that Austria might go and get him. I
>sympathize. But better him than me.


That would put bare Austria's throat to your knife should he attack
northwest.

>More and more I am thinking that you are in a really good spot. When I
>envisage teaming up with you openly later, I feel like I'm in a good spot
>too :)


Like I said, E/R is a great alliance.  Virtually unbeatable if you can
disguise it long enough.  Also, it's unusual enough to try in a demo game!
;)

>Listen, do you object to Mos-Stp? I don't know whether I want to do it or
>not. (I'd better decide soon, huh?) You could have Germany keep ordering
>Den-Swe, so there'd be no threat from me. I just get kind of uncomfortable
>with my home center unguarded and somebody (even my great buddy) sitting
>next to it.


Yep, I object.  I don't think you need to cover yourself at this point.
Anyway, it's fairly moot at this point as I'll be moving that fleet out to
the Norwegian and head it down towards Hohn.  I suspect this should give you
feelings of warm fuzzies and much security.  If you and Germany just keep
bouncing your fleets, we'll all be happy.  Ca va?

King Kal

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Ok, if you're evacuating those sailors from Oslo, then I'm happy to keep my
soldiers out of St Petersburg.

Looking forward to meeting you in Tunisia, 1911 or so,

Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Ok, if you're evacuating those sailors from Oslo, then I'm happy to keep my
>soldiers out of St Petersburg.
>
>Looking forward to meeting you in Tunisia, 1911 or so,


Deal!  But let's make it Naples.  I know this bar...

King Kal ;)

Message from England to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Well, this has certainly been everything I could have expected... and =
>less.  I am hurtin' for certain!
>
>So, whaddaya say?  Are you going to snake STP?  You don't have to tell =
>me, just do it!  I was a bit surprised by your builds.  Isn't it going =
>to be difficult to get France?  Certainly F Lon-Eng and A Bel-Pic would =
>give you a shot at Bre, but you have to turn your back on Germany.  =
>Wouldn't a continued attack on Germany have been easier?  I'd love to =
>know how he turned you around.


I was never attacking Germany.  Look at my moves and tell me where I was
overtly anti-German.  ;)  Therefore, he never had to turn me around.

>Your highness, if there's any distraction you can provide to the tsar, =
>it would be eternally appreciated.


Doesn't look good for now.  I hate two-front wars.  Hang on.

King Kal

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':


[[Very ingenious and intriguing plan at reconciliation deleted]]

>Please, just think about it, Cal.  I think it's a more than fair
>offer, and that it's a bold move which will net you more gain than you
>attacking me.  John will be caught completely off-guard, and will not
>be prepared to defend himself.
>
>Let me know what you think.  Thanks.


I have thought about it and decided against it.  Your points are valid and
certainly in your best interest, but I don't think they're in mine.  I'll be
continuing onward as I am now.

Look at it this way;  at least I didn't lie to you!  (well, this time
anyway... ;)  )

King Kal
Evil Northern Oppressor of Saintly Light Blue Blox

Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':

Naples it is.
Ice cream's on me.

Tsar J

Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Naples it is.
>Ice cream's on me.


Oh!  Too bad!  Let me wipe that up!

King Kal
Evil Oppressor of Saintly Light Blue Blox

Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Hey Pope Manus!

Saw your note about being busy.  I can sympathize as I've been on the run
for the last few days myself (puff, wheeze, puff).

Hope you're considering my suggestion to move to Piedmont.  Hohn has told me
flat out that he will happily cede you as many centres as he can give you in
order to stop them from falling into my ghoulish hands (cackle, cackle).

Think about.  It can't help but hasten France's departure from the game.

King Kal
Evil Oppressor of Saintly Light Blue Blox

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> >Personally, I like your sense of humor.  Keep it up.  If it drives away
> >certain observers, well, we're better off without them.
>
> :)
> Not Jim-Bob Burgess, he's very thick-skinned.
>
Oh, I have no worries about Jim.  I've knonw him for quite a while and
played against him a number of times FTF.  Can't drive him away with
insults.  I don't think that Rick was insulted either.  Some of the
other observers do seem to have a thin skin however.

> My secret is that I try to be entertaining so that others will prefer not
> to eliminate me. If I'm eliminated, no more entertainment. Keep it in mind.
>
Memo to self, "As long as Russia is amusing, leave him alone."

> >> Listen, I'll be away tomorrow, so don't be concerned if I don't answer you
> >> until Friday, ok?
> >>
> >Check.
>
> Don't know what I was thinking. Friday?

Hey, I bought it!

> Anyway, I'm back. I took my
> children skiing today, it was extremely exhausting, and I'm a little
> light-headed at the moment.
>
Good for you.  I wish I could go more often.  I grew up in Stowe and am
an avid skier, but really don't get out as much as I'd like, and my
little local mountain went bankrupt this year, so I couldn't do my
evening skiing.

> Sultan Steve finally tried to get back in my good graces by offering his
> help against the E/G/A alliance that is obviously forming. I'll just let
> you guess what my response was. (I try not to insult an enemy when he's
> down.) Anyway, I was glad to see it, since it presumably means he hasn't
> been successful in winning other neighbors over to his cause.
>
>
Ah, good.  I'm not really worried about Italy, but nice to have some
confirmation.  I don't think my move to Gal will fool him at all
(not with me in Bul!) but it should soothe the German fears.  It will
probably scare the beejeebus out of France, but hey, a little terror
is good for the soul (<:.

Kaiser D

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> [[Very ingenious and intriguing plan at reconciliation deleted]]
>
> >Let me know what you think.  Thanks.
>
> I have thought about it and decided against it.  Your points are
> valid and certainly in your best interest, but I don't think they're
> in mine.  I'll be continuing onward as I am now.
> Look at it this way;  at least I didn't lie to you!  (well, this time
> anyway... ;)  )
> King Kal
> Evil Northern Oppressor of Saintly Light Blue Blox

Would you mind explaining your reasoning to me?  I honestly don't see
why you think it's in your best interest to continue on your current
path.  You are guaranteed to take HOL this year if you attack Germany;
you are guaranteed to take nothing this year if you attack me.  KIE
and DEN are easy pick-ups the next year; at most, if I devote all of
my forces against you as I will, you will take BRE next year.  At
_most_.  You will not lose more than one season for one of your units
(LVP, specifically) worth of efficiency by going after Germany.
Afraid of treachery?  There's no way I'll attack you, not with Manus
being at my south and Germany with one fleet.

Meanwhile, if you continue coming after me, you leave yourself exposed
to both Russia and Germany.  BEL will be German whenever he wants it.
You will not be able to garrison the north very strongly with most of
your units against me.

I honestly don't see any legitimate reason for you to continue on
against me, Cal.  Please, explain it to me.

Hohn

Message from England to France in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as France to England in 'pouchtoo':

>Would you mind explaining your reasoning to me?  I honestly don't see
>why you think it's in your best interest to continue on your current
>path.  You are guaranteed to take HOL this year if you attack Germany;
>you are guaranteed to take nothing this year if you attack me.  KIE
>and DEN are easy pick-ups the next year; at most, if I devote all of
>my forces against you as I will, you will take BRE next year.  At
>_most_.  You will not lose more than one season for one of your units
>(LVP, specifically) worth of efficiency by going after Germany.
>Afraid of treachery?  There's no way I'll attack you, not with Manus
>being at my south and Germany with one fleet.
>
>Meanwhile, if you continue coming after me, you leave yourself exposed
>to both Russia and Germany.  BEL will be German whenever he wants it.
>You will not be able to garrison the north very strongly with most of
>your units against me.
>
>I honestly don't see any legitimate reason for you to continue on
>against me, Cal.  Please, explain it to me.


I will, but probably not until the end game statement.  :)

Cal

Message from France to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

> >I honestly don't see any legitimate reason for you to continue on
> >against me, Cal.  Please, explain it to me.
>
> I will, but probably not until the end game statement.  :)

Bleah.  I wish I had the keys to John's orbital mind-control laser...

Fine; the earlier promise about concentrating my defense on you still
stands.  That's regardless of who stabs me later, Manus included.

Hohn

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> Wow, you grew up in Stowe!

Ayup as we say up here.  Lived there all my life until I went to college
(at Dartmouth, so it was an easy commute home) then down to Nashua as that's
where the jobs where.  I started skiing "late" for a Stowite, that is, I
was 5 years old.  I basically lived on the mountain for the first 18 years
of my life, skiing 5 days a week. (The entire school has organized ski
lessons on Friday afternoons in the winter, and those who race, as I did,
take two afternoons or mornings off a week (alternating so as not to miss
the same class too much) and arrange to make up the work.)  I raced seriously
both downhill and cross country (top 20 in the state in both) until I went
to college, but the level of competition in the area is such that unless
you are a real superstar you don't stand out (I went to school with two
people who skied in the Olympics!).

> I grew up in Manhattan. I never skied until I was an adult, and I've only
> skied in Vermont twice. This time we went to Wachusett, which is pretty
> good by my standards (although all the snow was manmade, that part was
> lousy). There were no lift lines at all, no crowds whatsoever. This winter
> has been awful for skiing, though for just that reason the slopes have been
> uncrowded, and midweek is really empty. Our 'local mountain' (which is just
> a hill) closed weeks ago. Not permanently, but for the season.
>
Yeah, it hasn't been much of a winter.  I haven't been skiing all that much
lately.  Two small children, lousy winters, and I had to have the ACL in
my right knee replaced last year.  I'm hoping to head up to visit my parents
(they still live in Stowe) sometime in the middle of next week.  I'm
definitely a mid-week skier if I can.

> I'm not a very good skier, but my wife is, and I hope my kids will get into
it.
>

I'm the opposite.  My wife skies okay, but is not really into the sport.  She
feels she has to spend a couple of weekends cold and not really enjoying
herself to get into it each year and doesn't think it is worth it, particularly
given the expense.  She'd much rather do cross country or snowshoeing. Since
I enjoy both (and they are MUCH cheaper!) I don't complain, and just run up
to Stowe every so often for my own fix.

> In a year or two you ought to be heading for the Alps, huh?
>
I've skied the Swiss Alps, very nice!  I particularly liked the 4 mile run
>from the top back to the door of my hostel at the end of the day! Utah and
Colorado are also rather nice, and quite different.  I spent a week in Utah
skiing Alta and Snowbird and we had 81 inches of snow at the mountain in
9 days!  The only problem was driving the car up to the mountain every day.
I missed out on a trip with my sister and Dad last year because of my knee.
They spent a week helicopter skiing in the Canadian Rockies!

The old rule of thumb is to learn to ski in the east though, then you can go
anywhere in the world and look good.

Kaiser D

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> In a year or two you ought to be heading for the Alps, huh?
>

Okay, I'm a little slow today.  I just figured out this could be a
reference to the game.  Wake up Dave, it's time to go home!

Now you don't have to worry, you know the best skiing is in Italy
and France, not Russia, so you know where I'm going.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Glad you got that on second reading.

Yeah, the skiing in the Urals really stinks. All rope tows, for one thing.

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Ok, my orders are in. Here we go! This will be an interesting move, I think
the observer chat will pick up now.

Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':

Doge,

Ok, my moves are in now.

Sultan Steve did ask me to reconsider (in light of the 'obvious' fact that
there's a forming AEG alliance), and though I politely refused I am glad he
asked, because (I figure) it means that he tried convincing Kaiser Dave and
struck out there. He must have tried you too, but I was never worried about
that.

Anderkaiser John-Jeep also expressed a lot of concern about Austria's
plans, but none about yours (oddly, ironically).

I hope you'll be prepared to talk a lot during the next movement diplomacy
period. It might just possibly be a key moment. I understand you're
currently busy with the infantile distractions we've all been conditioned
to call 'work'.


Buona fortuna,
Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

We'd already agreed, but just for the official record, my A Rum is
supporting your A Ser-Bul. Jot that down in your useful memo book.

Tsar J

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Skiing:
Wow, you grew up in Stowe!
I grew up in Manhattan. I never skied until I was an adult, and I've only
skied in Vermont twice. This time we went to Wachusett, which is pretty
good by my standards (although all the snow was manmade, that part was
lousy). There were no lift lines at all, no crowds whatsoever. This winter
has been awful for skiing, though for just that reason the slopes have been
uncrowded, and midweek is really empty. Our 'local mountain' (which is just
a hill) closed weeks ago. Not permanently, but for the season.

I'm not a very good skier, but my wife is, and I hope my kids will get into it.

In a year or two you ought to be heading for the Alps, huh?

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> We'd already agreed, but just for the official record, my A Rum is
> supporting your A Ser-Bul. Jot that down in your useful memo book.
>

got it right here in my special circular file (<:.

For the record, I am sending Ser to Bul.  Isn't that handy!

I'm also sending Vie - Gal as agreed, then to take the pressure off you
and provide support for Gre in the fall in case I need it, or support
for Italy to Gre if decide on that, I'm sending Bud - Ser.  Tri is
staying put so Bud will be empty.

If any of that is a surprise/problem let me know!

Kaiser D

Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':

Cal,

Hohn has offered to support hol-bel. He'll order par-pic, thus wiping
out your army. If I go through with the orders we agreed on, this will
happen, even though it's not my intent to harm you.

The obvious thing to do is to change our orders to bel s mun-bur. OTOH,
tactically, we'd be no worse off if we go as planned. Your army would be
replaced by mine, and France's armies would stay in par and bur. I could
then order bel-bur in the fall and in all likelihood take it. You'd
still own Belgium, of course. In re diplomatic aspects, this would also
appear to Hohn as a friendly gesture on my part. This might result in
some real gains in the fall. And you could build another fleet.

It's your call.


Kaiser J

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

I thought you were going elsewhere, this way isn't so comfortable, but I
can live with it.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

>
> I thought you were going elsewhere, this way isn't so comfortable, but I
> can live with it.
>

Glad I sent them to you then, I don't want you feeling you've gotten
a rude surprise!  Where and how are things different than you expected?
I can change if needed.  I assume you're talking about my being in Tri
and Ser rather than Tri and Vie?  That's about the only place I see where
I could do anything different!  I thought there would be some advantage
to our having a unit in Ser.  It provides an extra support for Gre/Bul, or
even allows a supported attack on Bul, thus allowing Bul to attack Con
if the support cut is needed, but I don't have to do it if you'd prefer
otherwise.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

Yes, that was the surprise.

The concern is that you'll have three units bordering Rumania and also have
all those retreats (Rum-Bud, Rum-Ser) covered.

I understand why you want the army in Serbia. Actually, I wouldn't be
worried about Greece; the main thing as I see it is that if Turkey orders
Bul-Gre, so that he isn't kicked out of Aegean, you'll need some support
around Bulgaria. (For the reason you said, that I'm going to want you to
order Bul-Con in the Fall.) Hm, but I could just do Rum S Gre-Bul.

I think your moving to Serbia is marginally better for The Alliance, but
only marginally. I don't know what to tell you.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> I understand why you want the army in Serbia. Actually, I wouldn't be
> worried about Greece; the main thing as I see it is that if Turkey orders
> Bul-Gre, so that he isn't kicked out of Aegean, you'll need some support
> around Bulgaria. (For the reason you said, that I'm going to want you to
> order Bul-Con in the Fall.) Hm, but I could just do Rum S Gre-Bul.
>

My thinking on support for Greece is in some regards in reference to
Italy.  If it doesn't look like Italy is going to get a Turkish center,
we need to decide if we are going to give him one of mine.  I'd prefer
that to be my decision, not a decision he can make on his own, possibly
with Turkish support.

> I think your moving to Serbia is marginally better for The Alliance, but
> only marginally. I don't know what to tell you.
>

Well, they say adversity makes one stronger.  If we go this way, and I don't
stab you, which is what is going to happen as I honestly have zero intention
of attacking you, then you can feel that much more secure in knowing I
passed up a slight advantage (<:.  I could I suppose order the army to
Albania, but that would nullify most of the benefit of going to Gal, which
is to convince the west that there may be some contention between us.

BTW, we should probably have a consistent story to present the west after
this move.  My suggested scenario is that you let them know that the move
to Gal was a surprise to you.  Tell them that I justified it to you by
saying that I noticed at the last minute the possibility of the Germany
attack on Warsaw and wanted to be in a position to help you.  If asked,
I on the other hand, will explain that I have told you the above but I
really went there in the hopes that I might be able to just walk into
Warsaw as I though you were going to move to Stp and Arm (feel free to tell
them you told me that) and that your move to Ukr was a surprise to me.
Then we can "patch things up" for the moment, but will have left the
impression that we are an uneasy alliance at best.

Kaiser D

Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':

>My thinking on support for Greece is in some regards in reference to
>Italy.  If it doesn't look like Italy is going to get a Turkish center,
>we need to decide if we are going to give him one of mine.  I'd prefer
>that to be my decision, not a decision he can make on his own, possibly
>with Turkish support.

I see. Fair enough.

>BTW, we should probably have a consistent story to present the west after
>this move.  My suggested scenario is that you let them know that the move
>to Gal was a surprise to you.  Tell them that I justified it to you by
>saying that I noticed at the last minute the possibility of the Germany
>attack on Warsaw and wanted to be in a position to help you.  If asked,
>I on the other hand, will explain that I have told you the above but I
>really went there in the hopes that I might be able to just walk into
>Warsaw as I though you were going to move to Stp and Arm (feel free to tell
>them you told me that) and that your move to Ukr was a surprise to me.
>Then we can "patch things up" for the moment, but will have left the
>impression that we are an uneasy alliance at best.

Hm. That sounds ok.

Let's see, for one thing I believe that for full-blooded realism I might
just refuse to explain anything to the Other Powers (except Italy). I think
that's what I would do if you really took me by surprise.
For another thing, I don't want Germany or England to get the idea that I
am suddenly very vulnerable. I want them to think that I am strong and
merely leaving them both alone out of pure goodwill. That I have
essentially nothing to worry about, so that if attacked in the north I
would retaliate very hard.

But as long as you don't give a strong impression that you mean to attack,
and as long as you leave it open that if I were attacked elsewhere you
would leave me alone, that should be fine. Again, I think it would be
unrealistic for you to tell England or Germany much about what your plans
are, you surely wouldn't do that if you really intended to attack Warsaw.
(Would you?)

So maybe we ought just to let the units do the talking. Let them draw the
conclusions.

Tsar J

Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':

> ...
> But as long as you don't give a strong impression that you mean to attack,
> and as long as you leave it open that if I were attacked elsewhere you
> would leave me alone, that should be fine.
> ...
> So maybe we ought just to let the units do the talking. Let them draw the
> conclusions.
>
That's fine.  I certainly won't be volunteering any information.  If asked
if I'll join in on a general attack on you I will say no that I will
in fact help you defend.  The impression I mean to give is more that
I am opportunistic, thus to encourage them into thinking they can lead
me astray in the mid-game and therefore do not need to be too worried
about the strength of AR now.  I'm probably working too hard on this and
should just do the moves and see if anyone bothers to ask as you
suggest.  I enjoy the twists and turns and so am always thinking them
up.  Luckily lots of experience getting hammerred because of them has made
me wise enough to keep most of them up in my head where they belong!

Hope you have a good weekend,

Regards,
Kaiser D

Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Cal,
>
>Hohn has offered to support hol-bel. He'll order par-pic, thus wiping
>out your army. If I go through with the orders we agreed on, this will
>happen, even though it's not my intent to harm you.
>
>The obvious thing to do is to change our orders to bel s mun-bur. OTOH,
>tactically, we'd be no worse off if we go as planned. Your army would be
>replaced by mine, and France's armies would stay in par and bur. I could
>then order bel-bur in the fall and in all likelihood take it. You'd
>still own Belgium, of course. In re diplomatic aspects, this would also
>appear to Hohn as a friendly gesture on my part. This might result in
>some real gains in the fall. And you could build another fleet.
>
>It's your call.
>
>
>Kaiser J

Sorry to take so long to respond, but I was out of town.

I don't like losing the army, but it may be a way to throw Hohn off track.
Mind you, I've supported the move from Hol-Bel with F Nth so it may look a
bit funny, but I don't suppose we lose anything in the long run.

I'll leave my orders unchanged and let the chips fall where they may.

King Kal

Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':

Sorry I did not respond to you before the deadline. Work was
overwhelming the last couple of days. I did enter the orders you
suggested, though, and they will stay as written. We are fortunate for
the slight delay to make sure we were on the same page.

Cal is in for a bit of a surprise, I think.


Kaiser J

Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':

John,

> Message from [email protected] as Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Sorry I did not respond to you before the deadline. Work was
> overwhelming the last couple of days.

Believe me, I understand completely.  Hope things are better!

> I did enter the orders you
> suggested, though, and they will stay as written. We are fortunate for
> the slight delay to make sure we were on the same page.
> Cal is in for a bit of a surprise, I think.

Excellent!  I look forward to working with you.

Hohn

Message from Russia to Master in 'pouchtoo':

Rick,

I'm on jury duty starting today, for two weeks.

I don't think this will cause any game problems. I ought to have enough
time to do a little diplomacy and get my moves in. If I start to anticipate
real trouble, I'll let you know.

Jamie

Message from Russia to Austria, England, France,

Germany, Italy and Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

Players,

I'm on jury duty starting today (though we were all excused early today)
and running for a couple of weeks (I hope -- it could conceivably be longer
if I get unlucky and get stuck on one of those endless cases).

I don't expect to have to get any delays in the game at all, but I may not
be quite as prompt in responding as I usually like to be.

I've already informed Rick.

Jamie

Message from England to Austria, France, Germany,

Italy, Master, Russia and Turkey in 'pouchtoo':

>Message from [email protected] as Russia to Austria, England, France,
>Germany, Italy and Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Players,
>
>I'm on jury duty starting today (though we were all excused early today)
>and running for a couple of weeks (I hope -- it could conceivably be longer
>if I get unlucky and get stuck on one of those endless cases).
>
>I don't expect to have to get any delays in the game at all, but I may not
>be quite as prompt in responding as I usually like to be.
>
>I've already informed Rick.


The way this game's gone, Exhibits 1 & 2 will probably be a white Ford
Bronco and a bloody glove...

King Kal

Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':

> You could always let me proxy order your units, Manus.  I'd be happy to help
> out simply out of the goodness of my heart!  ;)
>
Actually, that's not such a bad idea.... :-)

> Seriously, best wishes to you and your Dad and hopes for a speedy and full
> recovery.  I lost my Dad about a year and a half ago and I still think about
> him every day.  I hope you're spared that loss for many years.
>
I'm sorry to hear about your loss.  Eventually, we all end up with the same
issues to deal with, don't we?  My sympathies (eighteen months late) and my
thanks for your kind thoughts.

Manus

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Last updated on Wed, July 21, 1999.