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Press for Fall of 1902 in pouchtoo
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Movement
Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in 'pouchtoo':
That went well!
Germany's going all out westward. France and England as expected (and hoped).
Steve defended Bul instead of Ank, somewhat surprising, but this will work
out just fine for Dave too.
I have to run off to report for Jury Duty now, but I'll work on tactics
this afternoon (assuming, as seems safe, that I don't get chosen for a
trial, the lawyers clearly hate me). (Not that I blame them.) I think it
ought to be pretty straightforward in the Turkey neighborhood.
Tsar Jamie
(Sorry, nothing about basketball today.)
Message from Observer to Turkey and Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Steve,
>Russia: Army Armenia -> Ankara.
>Russia: Army Rumania SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia ->
>Bulgaria.
>Russia: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Armenia -> Ankara.
>Turkey: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Fleet Aegean Sea -> Greece.
(*cut*)
>Turkey: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Greece. (*bounce, dislodged*)
>Turkey: Army Ankara -> Armenia. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Ouch! Must be your support of the PAC-10...
Yes, I smell it now - definitely myrrh,
Jim
Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
John,
Damn, damn, DAMN! I'm not sure exactly what just happened, but I
must've screwed up royally. I could've SWORN I inputted my orders
correctly! And like two weeks go by without me checking! Grrah!
Anyway, I have only myself to blame, and I apologize to you profusely.
I took away your flexibility, and screwed up my own position to boot.
I fully understand if you need to go with Cal, now, after my mistake.
And I will still regard you more favorably than him.
Please let me know if you have any suggestions for me/us. Thanks.
Hohn
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
Hohn claims he screwed up. I think he probably did.
I'm worried about the shifts in the east. IRA could really stick it to
me, if they wish. Last year's moves indicate just such an alliance, too.
It does not strike me as a very stable alliance, but it could last long
enough to do me in.
I'm amenable to the moves you suggested. But try to pry some info out
about the eastern front.
Kaiser J
Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':
Too bad. We would have eliminated England's army.
It's true this turn of events has all but thrown me into England's arms.
Still, I am quite worried about the deployments to my east. Italy
violated a pledge to stay out of Tyrolia. Russia moved to Warsaw. And
Austria's army in Galicia can easily trek to Silesia. You may have more
friends than you had imagined.
John
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Hey.
I thought we'd better discuss a few things without Italy first.
I can see a few ways to go after Turkey really hard. I mean, you get Bul,
that's easy, but we have various tries for Con or Smy, too. I am strongly
inclined, though, to have my F Bla support my A Ank, and I can have the A
Ank support an Italian move to either Con or Smy.
Now: if Italy goes for Con, that's probably a little better, because that
way you can support *yourself* into Bul without the help of my A Rum, and
that would perpetuate the little pretense of tension between us. And you
know what else, I could dislodge you from Galicia, and you could retreat to
either Bohemia (ending the pretense, I guess, but giving me room for
War-Sil) or to Sil (maintaining the pretense and getting surprise against
Germany in S1903).
What do you think?
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Strong position, but...
are you actually going to give Germany the center? I may just possibly have
my hands pretty full, don't need another German unit in the area.
Well, you do what you have to do, of course.
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Strong position, but...
>are you actually going to give Germany the center? I may just possibly have
>my hands pretty full, don't need another German unit in the area.
Not if I can help it. The plan calls for him to be just "passin' thru" on
the way to Burgandy. Hohn offered to support John to Bel from Bur and then
move Paris-Picardy to poof my army. John and I decided to make moves which
might confuse Hohn and get some position to show for the supposed loss of
my army. But then Hohn supposedly screwed up and my army lives.
What I need to know from you is what is going on with Manus in Tyrolia? I
fully support his being there as it will make John's demise easier when it
becomes necessary, but I don't want Hohn talking Manus into pulling the
trigger too early. In short, keep the army there, but don't use it until
later. Use some influence to this end, pretty puhleaze? ;)
King Kal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Kal,
>What I need to know from you is what is going on with Manus in Tyrolia?
Wellllll....
I know a little about it, and I'm willing to say, but you have to guarantee
me that you won't let anyone know where you got the info. Agreed?
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Hey.
>
Hey yourself (<:.
> I thought we'd better discuss a few things without Italy first.
>
Indeed.
> I can see a few ways to go after Turkey really hard. I mean, you get Bul,
> that's easy, but we have various tries for Con or Smy, too. I am strongly
> inclined, though, to have my F Bla support my A Ank, and I can have the A
> Ank support an Italian move to either Con or Smy.
>
That seems reasonable.
> Now: if Italy goes for Con, that's probably a little better, because that
> way you can support *yourself* into Bul without the help of my A Rum, and
> that would perpetuate the little pretense of tension between us. And you
> know what else, I could dislodge you from Galicia, and you could retreat to
> either Bohemia (ending the pretense, I guess, but giving me room for
> War-Sil) or to Sil (maintaining the pretense and getting surprise against
> Germany in S1903).
>
Certainly some possibilities here. I'm assuming that Germany will again
move Den to Swe this fall which keeps you from moving to either Bal or
Nwy? The retreat up to Sil has some possibilities. One question will
be where you plan to build your next unit? Are we going to limit this
coming attack to Germany or are you going to take a shot at Norway as
well? Fighting two powers at once is of course harder, but with my
support against Germany and France working from the other side we should
be able to contain them. And there is the question of whether or not
England will come to Germany's aid anyway, in which case we should attack
first.
The next question is that of Italy. How long do we want to continue the
three way alliance? It is actually easier to break it this year than it
will be for the next couple. This year we could simply NOT support Italy
to Con and I could walk into Ven. That would of course cause a Turkish/
Italian alliance, but with Turkey having two disbands and Italy having
one, and our units well placed to advance (Assuming Italy disbands Tunis,
Rome is still undefended) we have a good attack. The question is if we
can attack Germany as well in this scenario, and I think the answer is
yes. You should still be able to get a center in the north, and note
that the way it is currently going, England would actually have to
disband this year, although I expect they plan to avoid that by supporting
the German army Bel to Bur, using Pic, Ruh and Mun. It might even be
interesting to suggest that Italy support Bur to Mun, it could possibly
get in!
Anyway, I am not necessarily advocating the attack on Italy, just throwing
out ideas for discussion. If he gets a build this year, it becomes much
harder to make a move on him, and we have to worry about where he is
going next. We don't really want him attacking France!
Looking purely at the German attack, if you kick me out of Gal and I
retreat to Sil, then in the next spring we can move into Boh and Pru
with supported attacks which certainly has merit.
I'll set up a map tonight and try to look at this some more, so far I've
just glanced at the report.
-Dave
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Hi again,
One quick question. I assume you haven't said anything to Italy about
Gal yet. How much tension do we want him to think is between us?
-Dave
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Yike, I hadn't been thinking that aggressively. But you are right, I
absolutely have to look over those possibilities.
Just off the top of my head:
I hope to be able to fight Germany without fighting England.
I hadn't decided how to play our 'conflict' with Italy. I figure he's got
other things on his mind, so I just won't mention it. But I think my general
line is going to be, "Austria and I are not in open conflict, but I'm going
to be playing it safe." This gives Germany the impression that I want him to
have, and probably that I want everyone else to have. And it's just about
what I would say even if we *were* in a more serious conflict, I think I
would pretend it was still a situation I was trying to handle diplomatically.
Are you at all worried that if we turn out to be attacking Italy, Germany,
and Turkey all at once, everybody else on the board is going to quit
whatever they're doing and join forces against us? I guess we'd always have
France on our side, though, and maybe that would be enough, just you me and
Hohn. Hmmmmmmm.
Well, I'm still on Jury Duty, unfortunately, but I will put as much
attention as I can into the problems tomorrow.
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Kal,
>
>>What I need to know from you is what is going on with Manus in Tyrolia?
>
>Wellllll....
>I know a little about it, and I'm willing to say, but you have to guarantee
>me that you won't let anyone know where you got the info. Agreed?
>
>Tsar J
>
Not a problem. What's up?
King Kal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I know that Italy went there at France's request. I *think* that
France has promised support into Munich. Given Austria's apparent
ambitions, I am not sure that Italy will carry through -- he might decide
to go cover Venice instead.
Italy wants/needs another unit ASAP. Though he hasn't said so, he must be
worried about being cut out of the Turkish spoils, and anyway it's very
unlikely he'll get a center from Turkey this year. He lobbied Austria to
hand over Greece, but I think Austria has been relatively unreceptive to
that request so far. So he may go for Munich just for that reason.
Obviously, Manus is somewhat distracted from the game, so I hesitate to
predict his moves.
And that's the news from the southeast....
Tsar J
p.s. As for me, I am very pleased to have demilitarized the northeast!
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> I hope to be able to fight Germany without fighting England.
>
Good!
> I hadn't decided how to play our 'conflict' with Italy. I figure he's got
> other things on his mind, so I just won't mention it. But I think my general
> line is going to be, "Austria and I are not in open conflict, but I'm going
> to be playing it safe." This gives Germany the impression that I want him to
> have, and probably that I want everyone else to have. And it's just about
> what I would say even if we *were* in a more serious conflict, I think I
> would pretend it was still a situation I was trying to handle diplomatically.
>
Pretty much what I was thinking. I'm not going to bring it up with him.
if he asks, it was just because I was a little leary of you and we are
not at war.
> Are you at all worried that if we turn out to be attacking Italy, Germany,
> and Turkey all at once, everybody else on the board is going to quit
> whatever they're doing and join forces against us? I guess we'd always have
> France on our side, though, and maybe that would be enough, just you me and
> Hohn. Hmmmmmmm.
>
Yes, I'm a little worried about that. I certainly don't want to start a
western triple. However, I'm already labelled as the rogue of the board
to some extent. At least for this year, if I attack Italy, take Bul
by myself as suggested and you kick me out of Gal, there is no appearance
of a grand R/A alliance. You having Ank hold and not support Italy in
might trigger some suspicions. One way to avoid that would be for you
to order Ank - Con, Bla s Ank - Con. At worst this would end up with you
and Turkey trading Con and Ank, but there is no way that he could keep you
>from taking one center. Of course we are better off with you in Ank I
think. I suppose the third option is for you to actually support Italy
to Con. Even if Italy gets in, he has no builds. Turkey goes down to
one and you can play the innocent for the spring, perhaps even being able
to work with Italy to take out the last Turkish center and "promising"
to help against me. You do take out the Turkish center, but head for
Germany instead and then we work together to take Italy out of Turkey,
or finish him off the next year.
For example: Ank s Ital F Con - Smy with a stated plan of Bla - Con.
Ank does the support, but Bla supports Bul - Con. The retreating
Turkish unit might well support the Italian in Smy, but he'll be easy
meat the next year.
Once again, I'm off an running with the wild ideas. It's up to you to
grab the reins and apply some sanity (<:.
-Dave
Message from Austria to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Steve,
Just didn't want you to be feeling lonely there. Can't really offer any
hopes or encouragement unfortunately as Jamie seems to have covered his
bases rather well. Of course if anyone attacks me I'll be there making
all sorts of wild promises (<:.
Regards,
Dave
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
No time to write just now (maybe -- hopefully! -- tonight) but I wanted
to quickly get a note to you to ask if you have been expressing your anger
with me for moving to Tyrolia (assuming it wasn't bounced -- I didn't check)?
Doing so to the German will help the illusion, of course. I will also
write to him claiming that you have sent me a bad nastygram about it.
For proper effect, perhaps I could ask that you actually DO send me a
nastygram so that when I pass it along to him it sounds more genuine?
(If not, I can paraphrase one up for you, putting words in your mouth,
as it were.)
As you know, I warned Germany I'd be Vienna-bound, and since he didn't
complain (yet) about my busting our I/G/A agreement to keep Tyrolia as
a DMZ, I guess he believes me....
Gotta run,
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
No time to write just now, and maybe you'll be able to tell from this message
that I haven't even pulled up a map yet, but I thought I'd write to see if
you're still planning to help push me into Munich.
Gotta run,
Manus
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Manus,
Once again my best wishes for your father.
> For proper effect, perhaps I could ask that you actually DO send me a
> nastygram so that when I pass it along to him it sounds more genuine?
> (If not, I can paraphrase one up for you, putting words in your mouth,
> as it were.)
>
Here you go:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Duce,
Uhm, what's going on here? Are you letting the wife drive the car again?
You seem to have taken a little detour there into Tyrolia. Next time, if
you are lost, stop and ask for directions. Piedmont is off there to the
west you know.
Seriously, this does make things rather difficult for me. I acted on our
discussions about an A/I and took a slide into Galacia. Now, not only is
Russia less than pleased with me, but I've got to consider that I have
to protect myself against my "ally". Nor will I get anything out of the
Russian foray as he's covered himself well enough that I can't guarantee
anything working? Why exactly are you in Tyrolia? Hadn't we agreed you
would not go there? Makes me rather happy I decided to hold in Trieste.
I have heard Venice is lovely this time of year. Should I go see for
myself?
Please let me know what's going on.
Biermeister Von Tickedoff
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Will that do? (<:
> As you know, I warned Germany I'd be Vienna-bound, and since he didn't
> complain (yet) about my busting our I/G/A agreement to keep Tyrolia as
> a DMZ, I guess he believes me....
>
One thing to consider is that we should be able to get you Con this year
as Jamie has agreed to support you in. The best attack on Mun may be
to support France there! I'll send you two a joint note on that.
> Gotta run,
> Manus
>
-Dave
Message from Austria to Italy and France in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings Gentleman,
Unless Germany is planning on stabbing his English ally, which I wouldn't
want to bet a lot on, I expect that he will support Belgium to Burgundy
in order to keep England from having to disband. Using Pic and Ruhr and
Mun to do this, the attack is guaranteed. That does raise the possibility
however of having Tyrolia support Bur to Mun! I'd say there's a
reasonable chance that it would work. And it would certainly be a better
use of Tyrolia than some other options it might be considering! (<:.
Just a thought.
Kaiser Dave
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Kaiser D,
Here's what I think.
I think in a sense, your general plan would almost certainly work. I think
you would be able to crush Italy easily while we finished off Turkey. Then
between
us we would own more than half the board(!).
But the endgame just doesn't look very good to me. I mean, we would be
*forcing* the other powers to align against us. Maybe we could keep England
off my neck for a season or two, maybe we could convince Hohn not to
cooperate if GE ask him to, for a turn or so, but if we're clearly about to
control 18 centers, they'd have to be nuts not to drop their hostilities and
throw up a barricade. And those guys aren't nuts.
Could we outgun them?
We could have more units than they, I think, unless they acted *very*
quickly (unless France were permitted to sail in and help Italy hold Tunis,
say). But we'd be so army-heavy we'd be in pretty bad shape for bashing
through the bottlenecks. I imagine six or seven of my armies all trying to
push into Pru and Sil, while you've maybe managed to construct three fleets
and my extra one, all trying to take on the combined FrancoEnglish navy. I
haven't tried to play through it, but it looks like an exercise in futility.
I don't want to endlessly play the role of cold-water-thrower, so I'll try
to be constructive. I thought about how I would *like* the endgame to look,
and then worked backward from there. Here is how it looked to me.
I think the best thing for us is to have you, me, and one westerner all
*roughly* even going into the finish. (I think it would be all right if you
or I were a bit in the lead, but not if we were ahead 9-9-6, say.) My choice
for an endgame partner would be England, but it could be Germany, if Germany
could be persuaded to go along with me and attack England.
So, going backward from that, what should be the plan?
I think it's pretty easy, as long as we don't grow too fast!
If we just take it slow, remove Turkey, then you go after Italy and I begin
to squeeze Germany, I think we should be pretty nearly unattackable in a
couple of years. The way I see it, you would go ahead and pass up your best
opportunity (which is now) for a devastating stab against Italy, but you
would still outnumber him so drastically that you could take him on 1-on-1
in a year without anything to really worry about. I don't expect I'd really
get anywhere against Germany, but I would hold his units east, allowing
England to reap the French centers. When E gets to seven or so, I bet I can
get him to stab Germany too, and at that point we'd be headed for the
endgame.
What I like about this situation is that it doesn't require anyone in the
game to do anything dumb. In many games I would be willing to count on
somebody playing stupidly, but not in this one -- I don't need to point out
that neither Cal nor Hohn nor John is about to go all irrational on us in
the midgame. Rather, the game would be controlled by you, me, and Cal (or
John, we can try to work that out if you prefer it), and the ending would
be highly advantageous for the three of us, and I don't see that anyone
else could do much about it.
In the ending we three would be roughly even, I think. On the one hand, I
would be a little more vulnerable to a gang-up attack, but on the other
hand Russia practically always has a kind of tactical advantage in the
ending if he survives that long, just because of his having operations in
two spheres.
I haven't played any of this out on the board. It's all pretty abstract.
But what do you think?
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I seem to have been left high and dry by Russia as regards my
play for Vienna. He had talked about Arm-Rum and Rum-Gal in the Spring,
with me getting Vienna and (having used Austrian support in the Spring
the way I did) Greece in the Fall. It wasn't to happen, obviously. Great.
I suppose my silence over the past few weeks made him rethink his idea to
suddenly slam Austria (if it was ever true in the first place). Looks like
his talks with Turkey about it worked as well as his talks with me.
For his part, Austria has expressed serious displeasure with my move to
Tyrolia, and I imagine he's giving you an earful about it as well.
And for my part, I am seriously displeased that he is still in Trieste
and the boot is empty, a fact he has happily pointed out.
I don't rightly know what to do now. My whole game seems to be based
on me having one too many units, because one of them is always either
stuck with nothing to do or is doing something it lives to regret.
Anyway, I have to commend Jamie for driving a wedge between what was
once a pretty dang good A/I alliance. Hopefully it's not beyond repair,
and that's partly why I'm writing to you. How mad is Dave? His press
to me made it clear he's not too happy, but since his position isn't
compromised, maybe we can just laugh it off?
Trying to get back into the game,
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I fired off a message to Germany, which I excerpt from below so that you can
make your stories match if need be:
> Well, I seem to have been left high and dry by Russia as regards my
> play for Vienna. He had talked about Arm-Rum and Rum-Gal in the Spring,
> with me getting Vienna and (having used Austrian support in the Spring
> the way I did) maybe Greece in the Fall. It wasn't to happen, obviously.
> Great. I suppose my silence over the past few weeks made him rethink his
> idea to suddenly slam Austria (if it was ever true in the first place).
> Looks like his talks with Turkey about it worked as well as his talks with
> me.
>
> For his part, Austria has expressed serious displeasure with my move to
> Tyrolia, and I imagine he's giving you an earful about it as well.
> And for my part, I am seriously displeased that he is still in Trieste
> and the boot is empty, a fact he has happily pointed out.
>
> I don't rightly know what to do now. My whole game seems to be based
> on me having one too many units, because one of them is always either
> stuck with nothing to do or is doing something it lives to regret.
>
> Anyway, I have to commend Jamie for driving a wedge between what was
> once a pretty dang good A/I alliance. Hopefully it's not beyond repair,
> and that's partly why I'm writing to you. How mad is Dave? His press
> to me made it clear he's not too happy, but since his position isn't
> compromised, maybe we can just laugh it off?
Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Austria has not said a thing to me. He must think it's between the two
of you at this point. My question, of course, was whether your move
indicated you were helping France. I take it that's not the case.
What do you make of vie-gal and mos-war?
The Kaiser
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
While waiting for the retreats, I took a glance at our situation. How
about instead of pic-par you take a shot at Brest? If Hohn blocks you,
bel-bur succeeds, so you still own Belgium. If he blocks me, then you
take Brest. Seems to be our best shot at picking up a center.
The Kaiser
Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
> Austria has not said a thing to me.
>
Well, that's a pleasant surprise. Given that we all three agreed to
DMZ Tyrolia, I would have thought he'd complain straightaway to you.
> He must think it's between the two of you at this point.
>
I imagine if it hadn't been for Tri H, this might not be the case.
> My question, of course, was whether your move
> indicated you were helping France. I take it that's not the case.
>
I haven't heard from France at all, other than a personal mail on the
state of my father's health. I imagine he's just happy to have not seen
Ven-Pie (which I suppose I now wish I had done).
> What do you make of vie-gal and mos-war?
>
Well, for Vie-Gal, I can offer an excerpt from Austria's recent mail
to me complaining about Ven-Tyr:
> Uhm, what's going on here? Are you letting the wife drive the car again?
> You seem to have taken a little detour there into Tyrolia. Next time, if
> you are lost, stop and ask for directions. Piedmont is off there to the
> west you know.
>
> Seriously, this does make things rather difficult for me. I acted on our
> discussions about an A/I and took a slide into Galacia. Now, not only is
> Russia less than pleased with me, but I've got to consider that I have
> to protect myself against my "ally". Nor will I get anything out of the
> Russian foray as he's covered himself well enough that I can't guarantee
> anything working? Why exactly are you in Tyrolia? Hadn't we agreed you
> would not go there? Makes me rather happy I decided to hold in Trieste.
> I have heard Venice is lovely this time of year. Should I go see for
> myself?
>
> Please let me know what's going on.
>
> Biermeister Von Tickedoff
Russia, as I said, is playing every side I can think of against the
middle, and his moves to Warsaw and Ukraine look to me like foreknowledge
of Austria's belief in the A/I I was selling him ("I'll go west to Pie, you
go east to Gal"). He didn't stab Dave (as he'd promised me), but he also
didn't let Dave stab him (as DAVE promised me). Jamie is doing a bang-up
job, I must say.
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
Hohn:
Austria obviously has interest in seeing Tyrolia involved in Munich
rather than elsewhere, and as you know, so do I. Let me know your
feelings on this, whether we are still up for Tyr-Mun (and whether you
think it will work). I believe I have laid the diplomatic framework
to engineer it as a surprise for our friend the Bavarian.
Gotta run do some real-life work. :-(
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> You have my full support wherever you want it, Manus. Many thanks for
> your assistance.
>
Well, if you think Dave is right that Burgundy will be cut, we should
think about how to proceed.
> Will you be able to send one of your fleets west to help me?
>
I hope to do so soon. I really truly do.
> Or is Austria willing to throw a unit against Germany? Please let me know.
>
I had thought that we would see an Austrian unit in Bohemia. This is what
I had been told would happen. Vie-Gal didn't make much sense to me.
Manus
Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Kaier Jeep,
I'm happy with all the peace up in my northern reaches. And I'm happy with
the aligment in the south, too, for the present. I'll proceed on the
assumption that both of those will continue as they are now.
I'm not happy with my long range opportunities. I have lots of options, but
they all make me very uncomfortable.
Because of some unfortunate incidents in GHODSTOO, you never really got to
see how I play in a middlegame (with more than one unit, that is). But
especially as Russia, what I definitely do not want to be is the
front-runner. So what am I going to do when Turkey dies? I don't like it.
If you and Cal could finish off France quickly, I'd be much happier, but I
don't see how that's going to happen. One possibility is that somehow Italy
could go and help you. I could free him to do that by just attacking
Austria outright. But I'm afraid I would lose that fight, and I'm afraid
either you or King Kal would step in, frankly. Not on my side.
I can't see any obvious prospects for continuing to make progress without
growing more than is healthy for me. I wish I could teleport a unit to the
far west, I'd just support your invasion of France.
I don't expect to be making any new enemies this coming year. Until I think
of some good plan, I'll just finish off Turkey and try to make myself an
unappealing target for Austria. But I don't know that I can just sit still
until you've finished your project, either. Or maybe I can. I dunno.
Part of my problem is that I've been all tied up with jury duty for the
past two weeks, so I've lost my feel for the geopolitical situation in
POUCHTOO. (Fancy way of saying that I don't know what the hell I'm doing
anymore.) If you'd like to feed me a master plan, I'd probably gobble it
right up. Any ideas?
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Kaiser J,
Let me start by answering your last question first:
> But what do you think?
I think you're a thinking man!
A very good analysis. The key is as we've known, if our actions will
incite the formation of a western triple. I have to agree, given the
caliber of the players involved, that an all out A/R sweep right now
would probably do that. The lack of fleets available to us would
indeed be an issue, and I doubt we could bull our way through.
In a game with less experienced players I think we could probably keep
the world confused about what was coming if I were to stab Italy at
the same time that you kicked me out of Galacia. In this game, I'm
less certain.
However, having agreed with you, now I have to wonder if the cautious
approach is any better. Lets assume that we go forward attacking only
Turkey this turn. With luck, I will take Bul and Italy will NOT get
Con. The next year there is no way to avoid giving Italy a Turkish
center, or to make the open break. My concern is what happens then?
At this point, Italy really has two choices, to turn west against France
as part of an AIR, or to turn against me, looking for the IR. Assuming
for the moment that the first occurs (<:, seeing an AIR coming is
definitely going to trigger the Western realignment we are concerned
about, even more so than seeing a potential AR now. We also have
to face the fact that this is going to be obvious to the Western powers.
Once Turkey is gone, you have to go somewhere, and that means either
an Austria sandwich or a move in the north.
So, the only way I see this working out is that I forgo the attack on
Italy this year, hoping that Italy does NOT get a build, then I make
the attack next year while you begin a foray against Germany. My
concern here is the timing. You have mentioned doing this in a couple
of years. I think that will raise problems as mentioned above, i.e.,
what will Italy be doing for those years. How will it play out if we
do it next year? This may be the right time in regards to Germany as
well as we don't really want him getting too many builds out of France.
If you want to wait longer than that, what do you see the three of us
(AIR) doing in the next two years?
One option is to not make the move on Germany immediately. For example,
next year we support Aegean to Con and I move Greece to Aegean. In
the fall Aeg and Con support Ank to Smyrna, and I make the stab. At
that point we've gone two years without an obvious move on Germany
and G/E should be deeply embedded in France. Now we can coordinate
the destruction of the Italian fleet in Con preferably ending with
your fleet in Con so it can head west (aren't I a trusting soul (<: ).
At the same time we can begin the assualt on Germany.
As long as we can keep Italy in Tyrolia so that I can stab to Venice,
I think this timing will work out. What do you think?
As far as the long term, I agree in your basic scenario, but I think
that it might be preferable to have France the one Western power, not
England. England is a much tougher nut for us to crack, he can close
of your northern fleets much more effectively and has the fleets to
stop us in MAO. France working with us will have the benefit of the
history of conflict they have already started, and of having a more
balanced force. We can deal with the armies, the fleets are the
problem, so this is a benefit to us.
Look forward to your comments.
-Dave
---USWI Diplomacy Adjudicator wrote:
>
> Read http://hydaspes.if.org/~judge/ before you do anything with this judge.
> If you can't read it on a web browser, email me and i'll send you a copy.
>
> I guess i'll have to say it again. DO NOT CREATE ANY GAMES ON THIS JUDGE
> WITHOUT READING AND COMPLYING WITH THE REQUIREMENTS ON THAT PAGE.
>
> - The judge keeper.
>
> ==========================================================================
>
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Kaiser D,
>
> Here's what I think.
>
> I think in a sense, your general plan would almost certainly work. I think
> you would be able to crush Italy easily while we finished off Turkey. Then
> between
> us we would own more than half the board(!).
>
> But the endgame just doesn't look very good to me. I mean, we would be
> *forcing* the other powers to align against us. Maybe we could keep England
> off my neck for a season or two, maybe we could convince Hohn not to
> cooperate if GE ask him to, for a turn or so, but if we're clearly about to
> control 18 centers, they'd have to be nuts not to drop their hostilities and
> throw up a barricade. And those guys aren't nuts.
>
> Could we outgun them?
>
> We could have more units than they, I think, unless they acted *very*
> quickly (unless France were permitted to sail in and help Italy hold Tunis,
> say). But we'd be so army-heavy we'd be in pretty bad shape for bashing
> through the bottlenecks. I imagine six or seven of my armies all trying to
> push into Pru and Sil, while you've maybe managed to construct three fleets
> and my extra one, all trying to take on the combined FrancoEnglish navy. I
> haven't tried to play through it, but it looks like an exercise in futility.
>
> I don't want to endlessly play the role of cold-water-thrower, so I'll try
> to be constructive. I thought about how I would *like* the endgame to look,
> and then worked backward from there. Here is how it looked to me.
>
> I think the best thing for us is to have you, me, and one westerner all
> *roughly* even going into the finish. (I think it would be all right if you
> or I were a bit in the lead, but not if we were ahead 9-9-6, say.) My choice
> for an endgame partner would be England, but it could be Germany, if Germany
> could be persuaded to go along with me and attack England.
>
> So, going backward from that, what should be the plan?
>
> I think it's pretty easy, as long as we don't grow too fast!
>
> If we just take it slow, remove Turkey, then you go after Italy and I begin
> to squeeze Germany, I think we should be pretty nearly unattackable in a
> couple of years. The way I see it, you would go ahead and pass up your best
> opportunity (which is now) for a devastating stab against Italy, but you
> would still outnumber him so drastically that you could take him on 1-on-1
> in a year without anything to really worry about. I don't expect I'd really
> get anywhere against Germany, but I would hold his units east, allowing
> England to reap the French centers. When E gets to seven or so, I bet I can
> get him to stab Germany too, and at that point we'd be headed for the
> endgame.
>
> What I like about this situation is that it doesn't require anyone in the
> game to do anything dumb. In many games I would be willing to count on
> somebody playing stupidly, but not in this one -- I don't need to point out
> that neither Cal nor Hohn nor John is about to go all irrational on us in
> the midgame. Rather, the game would be controlled by you, me, and Cal (or
> John, we can try to work that out if you prefer it), and the ending would
> be highly advantageous for the three of us, and I don't see that anyone
> else could do much about it.
>
> In the ending we three would be roughly even, I think. On the one hand, I
> would be a little more vulnerable to a gang-up attack, but on the other
> hand Russia practically always has a kind of tactical advantage in the
> ending if he survives that long, just because of his having operations in
> two spheres.
>
>
>
> I haven't played any of this out on the board. It's all pretty abstract.
> But what do you think?
>
>
> Tsar J
>
>
>
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hello Manus,
For the moment I'm not sending anything to Germany. In the current
situation there isn't much I would expect him to do, so I figured
if I sent him something that might seem a little too much like play
acting. The fact that I don't on the other hand, may make it seem
more realistic! If he does write me however, I will make sure the
stories line up.
Please let me know what you end up doing. I'm assuming you will be
using Tyrolia against Munich one way or the other, but if you want
to arrange a bounce in Venice, I can certainly do that. (Or you
take Vienna and I take Venice just to really make it look like
a fight!).
-Dave
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Couple of things I forgot to mention. One is what to do about Gal. The
retreat to Sil doesn't really make a lot of sense if we aren't going to
move on Germany in the near future. All this talk about stabbing Italy
has also pointed out to me how open I am to an attack by him. There is
the potential for him to take Greece and try for Vienna. That would also
effectively make my attack on Bul fail, leaving me in a rather poor
situation. Any indications that he's considered this?
If you are not going to do the attack on Gal, then what do you think is the
best use of your armies, and of the build you have coming? Between us
we are going to have an awful lot of armies sitting around doing nothing.
Do you think having them all hold is plausible or do we need to
orchestrate something?
Kaiser D
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Hmmmmmm.
Complicated.
I have to think about it.
Just off the top of my head, here are a couple of comments.
1. I have no indication at all that Italy is planning to sneak into Vie. He
hasn't written to me except that one note to the both of us. Personally, I
doubt he's planning it, because he would surely try to get a commitment
>from me to help him, right? Or at least be feeling me out. No third party
has mentioned anything about it either. Well, England did ask me what was
up with the A Tyo, but he really wanted to know whether Italy would use it
against Germany.
2. You might think a little about the option of just sitting around doing
nothing.
I know, it's weird, but really I've seen it work splendidly.
Oh, and I would *love* to have France be our western partner, yes, but I
don't see how that's going to happen. I could bail him out, but I'm not
going to get him into a position in which he'd be the third genuine
contender. Or, hm. Maybe. Maybe you could help him to Italian centers,
while I took on both E and G??? Seems crazy.
If we could persuade Italy to go west, that would make France collapse. And
then I could arrange for either Germany or England to be the Third Man,
while you smashed Italy from the rear. Well, anyway I think I could arrange
for England to be the Third Man. (This is bugging me, because I like John
as an ally, but tactically Cal is better. I'll get over it. No doubt Cal
can make a good ally. In fact, the only one of the bunch I never really
liked as an ally was Steve, so that worked out nicely, huh?)
You're right, the big issue is timing. But once again, I think maybe the
possibility of sitting our armies around doing nothing could be quite a
relevant one. Or if you hate that, we could make them tangle with each
other for a while :). Just to put on a show, give the observers something
to write about :)
Seriously, I wouldn't want to do that, I think.
I agree that if we won't attack Germany right away, it would be silly for
me to dislodge you from Gal to Sil.
Well, we have a whole week now, so I'll mull things over this weekend and
we can start to make a really fiendish plan on Monday.
Ooh, just got the broadcast saying you were outa here. Ok, me too!
Tsar J
Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
>While waiting for the retreats, I took a glance at our situation. How
>about instead of pic-par you take a shot at Brest? If Hohn blocks you,
>bel-bur succeeds, so you still own Belgium. If he blocks me, then you
>take Brest. Seems to be our best shot at picking up a center.
Hmmm, I don't know if we can count on you taking Burgandy if Hohn blocks me
>from Brest. Word "on the street" is that Hohn has promised Italy support
into Munich and that Manus is desperate enough for a centre that he might
try it. My source, who wants to remain anonymous, is reasonably reliable
(although Jamie (oops!) DID get the rumours of Hohn building a fleet in
Brest incorrect). Anyway, make of it what you will. I think the better
move, in light of this possibility, is to stick with the original plan.
What do you think?
King Kal
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
I concur 100% with your policy of not sending Germany anything. I think
he's in a good state of mind for us (whatever that is).
Gotta run. I'll let you know if Tyr wants to do anything in concert with
you when I hear back from Hohn....
Manus
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
Italy is might be trying to mislead me, but he insisted he was in
Tyrolia due to a failed RI attack on Austria. He says Russia was
supposed to move into Galicia, and Austria also was supposed to move out
of Trieste. Neither of these happened, and now Austria has threatened to
attack Venice. Italy sent me the lines from Austria's message that made
the threat, and the excerpt looked genuine. Given this, even if AI work
it out, Italy might not feel comfortable leaving Venice uncovered.
Then the question is what Russia has to gain by raising the possibility
of Italy helping France. Usually, Russia wants France to survive as long
as possible. If I were Russia, I would also want Italy to do well. Maybe
if AR are locked in a tight alliance, he wants F and I to be weak. But
if he's trying to help France, the rumor would probably be aimed at
leading us to overload on Burgundy so Brest is not at risk. Then France
has a chance to cover the centers and defend Mid.
I do think that a lot of mistrust and chaos is going on among Italy,
Austria, and Russia, and I would not be surprised to see Turkey play a
major part in who makes gains. In light of that, I think it unlikely
that Italy will do anything to antagonize me. He has to see that he is
not likely to take Munich. My most obvious moves include kie s mun, and
FI can't do anything about that. So hitting Munich would gain him
nothing. If I were Italy and looking for some quick gains, I'd either
try to take Greece and cover Venice or patch it up with Austria while
turning my eyes to some possible easy pickings at France's expense. More
likely, he'll tread water this turn.
In any event, my orders are in. I've ordered bel-bur as we have planned
all along. It's your choice whether to risk taking a shot at Picardy. My
view is that Italy won't interfere, but then I don't have a center at
stake. The worst that could happen is that I would add a unit and you
would lose one. Given the tactical situation, I'd rather that not
happen. I think we'd be worse off if I have to build in Berlin than with
your units as currently deployed, minus one. Those, I think, are the
costs to weigh against the possibility of picking up Brest.
In the end, it's your call. I'll be satisfied with whatever decision you
make.
The Kaiser
Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Italy might be trying to mislead me, but he insisted he was in
>Tyrolia due to a failed RI attack on Austria. He says Russia was
>supposed to move into Galicia, and Austria also was supposed to move out
>of Trieste. Neither of these happened, and now Austria has threatened to
>attack Venice. Italy sent me the lines from Austria's message that made
>the threat, and the excerpt looked genuine. Given this, even if AI work
>it out, Italy might not feel comfortable leaving Venice uncovered.
I went over what Jamie wrote more carefully and the exact quote is:
"Well, I know that Italy went there [Tyo] at France's request. I *think*
that
France has promised support into Munich. Given Austria's apparent
ambitions, I am not sure that Italy will carry through -- he might decide
to go cover Venice instead."
Not as certain as I thought he had stated... Also, it seems as if there is
uncertainty about Venice/Trieste, something that we can take advantage of,
methinx.
>Then the question is what Russia has to gain by raising the possibility
>of Italy helping France? Usually, Russia wants France to survive as long
>as possible. If I were Russia, I would also want Italy to do well. Maybe
>if AR are locked in a tight alliance, he wants F and I to be weak. But
>if he's trying to help France, the rumor would probably be aimed at
>leading us to overload on Burgundy so Brest is not at risk. Then France
>has a chance to cover the centers and defend Mid.
I think the intelligence was offered in good faith as opposed to Jamie
hoping to achieve some unknown end from it. He's been pretty good about
trying to keep me informed about what he hears: I suppose he feels he's
buying peace in the north for any help he can give. Needless to say, he's
thrilled that the three of us have effectively demilitarized Scandinavia.
>I do think that a lot of mistrust and chaos is going on among Italy,
>Austria, and Russia, and I would not be surprised to see Turkey play a
>major part in who makes gains. In light of that, I think it unlikely
>that Italy will do anything to antagonize me. He has to see that he is
>not likely to take Munich. My most obvious moves include kie s mun, and
>FI can't do anything about that. So hitting Munich would gain him
>nothing. If I were Italy and looking for some quick gains, I'd either
>try to take Greece and cover Venice or patch it up with Austria while
>turning my eyes to some possible easy pickings at France's expense. More
>likely, he'll tread water this turn.
Yeah, I think the key is that, with A Kie S A Mun such an obvious move, it's
unlikely that Hohn could talk Manus into antagonizing you. That just
doesn't make a lot of sense, even if Manus must surely have fears of being
the next target of an E/G. He wouldn't want to guarantee that he IS the
next in line by getting you mad at him.
>In any event, my orders are in. I've ordered bel-bur as we have planned
>all along. It's your choice whether to risk taking a shot at Picardy. My
>view is that Italy won't interfere, but then I don't have a center at
>stake. The worst that could happen is that I would add a unit and you
>would lose one. Given the tactical situation, I'd rather that not
>happen. I think we'd be worse off if I have to build in Berlin than with
>your units as currently deployed, minus one. Those, I think, are the
>costs to weigh against the possibility of picking up Brest.
I'm going to write to Manus and feel him out. My current thought is to take
a stab at Brest and see what happens. If I have to remove a unit, it'll
probably be the army and I'll focus on the Mid Atlantic. As an aside,
that'll probably guarantee that I go for Manus after France is gone.
>In the end, it's your call. I'll be satisfied with whatever decision you
>make.
Kool. ;)
King Kal
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Well, I know that Italy went there at France's request. I *think* that
>France has promised support into Munich. Given Austria's apparent
>ambitions, I am not sure that Italy will carry through -- he might decide
>to go cover Venice instead.
>
>Italy wants/needs another unit ASAP. Though he hasn't said so, he must be
>worried about being cut out of the Turkish spoils, and anyway it's very
>unlikely he'll get a center from Turkey this year. He lobbied Austria to
>hand over Greece, but I think Austria has been relatively unreceptive to
>that request so far. So he may go for Munich just for that reason.
Interesting info. Given that Manus has told Germany that the move to Tyo
was an aborted attempt at a I/R stab of Austria, it's doubly interesting...
When you and I discussed the timing of when we would want to hit Italy
and/or Austria, I think we pretty much agreed that it wouldn't happen until
Turkey was a little further gone. Hmmm, is this part of your master plan to
keep Italy & Austria mistrustful of each other (as we also discussed). If
so, I'd say you're doing wonderfully! ;)
>Obviously, Manus is somewhat distracted from the game, so I hesitate to
>predict his moves.
>
>And that's the news from the southeast....
Much obliged. Not much to tell from up here that isn't obvious. Hohn will
lose some ground this year, but it's a guessing game as to how much ground
and where. But then again, that's DIplomacy!
>p.s. As for me, I am very pleased to have demilitarized the northeast!
Me too.
ttyl
King Kal
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Hi Manus! Hope everything is well at home. Thinking about what you're
going thru has made me remember MY Dad even more often. If you want to
discuss it at all, I'd be glad to provide my perspective. Talking with a
(relative) stranger can help. Meanwhile, hang in there. :)
On to Dip stuff:
Let's get one thing straight here from the start. If I have ANY choice in
the matter, English fleets will NOT come pouring into the Med once France
goes under. I've played England many times (and many of those times, allied
with Germany) and one thing I've learned is this: moving into the Med just
about always results in a stalemate and an overextension of English forces.
This is something I very much want to avoid. While it probably wouldn't
leave me open to a stab because of a (hopefully) fleetless Germany, it would
result in, at best, a share of a large draw. I hope to do better than a
five/six way draw in this game.
The reason I'm stating this is to ask you to NOT use that Tyrolean army to
harass Munich. Without your help, Hohn can't survive long and, once he goes
I can turn my attention east (note I said east _not_ southeast...). I don't
know (and wouldn't say if I did!) who I would attack between R & G, but it
would be one of them, not you.
Tactically, if John doesn't get into Burgandy with Belgium this turn, I lose
a unit. That would most likely be the army and I would then have to
concentrate my attack thru the Mid-Atlantic. Given _that_ scenario, there'd
be a chance that my disposition of forces would force me to continue onward
through the Med. Neither one of us wants that!
Stay out of the western fight and I promise you that English forces will
stay completely out of the Pie-Lyo-Wes-Naf line. This will allow both of us
a good sense of security and we'll be able to work together(for the sake of
honesty, I _will_ say that all bets would be off should you seem likely to
fall to Austrian or Turkish forces - obviously, then I'd come across the
line, but I'd let you know first).
Does all this sound fair to you? If you have _any_ problems with this, let
me know what I can do to satisfy your concerns. Comments welcome! :)
Kordially yours,
King Kal
Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Just a note to let you know I wasn't ignoring you. The truth is that I
have no more of a master plan than you do. Right now, it seems I am
locked into anti-France. If Hohn had moved a little differently, I would
have had more options, but he did not, so the attack continues.
The immediate term perhaps deserves some comment. Your southern front
looks immensely complicated and uncertain to me. Turkey might not go
down as easily as you would hope. In that case, you might not have to
worry about Early Leader Syndrome quite so much, because we'll catch up
with you as France falls. In any case, it might still be too early to
develop a big plan. I only hope we remember that if we both build
fleets, we can challenge England on the seas.
The Kaiser
Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I have received a long and impassioned plea from Cal that I do not use
Tyrolia to hassle Munich. It confirms the battle plan we thought that
E/G was using against Hohn.
I'm not sure how to respond, so thought I'd mention it to you guys for
advice. What direction should we take? We could do a little Vienna/Venice
do-si-do instead of Munich (I haven't heard at all from Hohn) but my plan
right now (pending word from Hohn) is to go against England's wishes.
I am just not sure that this type of out-and-out enmity is what we want
to foster just now. What do you guys say?
Cal's argument is basically that he has no interest in sending fleets
around Iberia -- bears me no ill will, etc., and will head toward someone
other than me when Hohn is dispatched.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
I think it's simple, really.
Do you want to slow down the EG invasion of France, or do you not?
Ok, maybe it's not so simple to answer that question for yourself, but
that's the question. You know better than to listen to King Kal's promises.
If it's in his interest to pick Germany or me as his next target, then he'll
do that irrespective of whether you've pestered Germany in Munich; and if
he's decided he has to make a Midgame Mediterranean Entree, then he's not
going to feel so grateful to you for staying out of the Beergartens that
he'll change his plans.
Do you want me to tell you whether you *should* slow down the invasion? I
haven't decided. :)
I'll think about it.
Ya know, we need a plan now. I've been delaying, partly because you haven't
been around, and partly because I can't think of a good one. But it's time,
otherwise I'm afraid we're going to find ourselves both in a bad midgame.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Interesting info. Given that Manus has told Germany that the move to Tyo
>was an aborted attempt at a I/R stab of Austria, it's doubly interesting...
>
>When you and I discussed the timing of when we would want to hit Italy
>and/or Austria, I think we pretty much agreed that it wouldn't happen until
>Turkey was a little further gone. Hmmm, is this part of your master plan to
>keep Italy & Austria mistrustful of each other (as we also discussed). If
>so, I'd say you're doing wonderfully! ;)
It must be one of those talents I have that I exercise without realizing it.
I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get into the endgame I want, with
you and me plus either Austria or Italy. My problem is timing.
Specifically, I have to figure out how I am (we are) going to do this
without me growing too much in the interrim and spoiling everything.
I just wanted you to know that I'm aware of this potential difficulty, and
I don't intend to let things get out of hand, I am going to be careful that
I don't *force* you to attack me!
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Ok, mulled things over a little this weekend.
>However, having agreed with you, now I have to wonder if the cautious
>approach is any better. Lets assume that we go forward attacking only
>Turkey this turn. With luck, I will take Bul and Italy will NOT get
>Con. The next year there is no way to avoid giving Italy a Turkish
>center, or to make the open break. My concern is what happens then?
>At this point, Italy really has two choices, to turn west against France
>as part of an AIR, or to turn against me, looking for the IR. Assuming
>for the moment that the first occurs (<:, seeing an AIR coming is
>definitely going to trigger the Western realignment we are concerned
>about, even more so than seeing a potential AR now. We also have
>to face the fact that this is going to be obvious to the Western powers.
>Once Turkey is gone, you have to go somewhere, and that means either
>an Austria sandwich or a move in the north.
Right.
Well, actually, I think maybe a southern AIR would be *less* worrisome to
the northerners. Because AIR is just too many powers, they would know it
was going to break up. And Germany and England would be very happy, I
think, to see Italy cut the legs out from under France's defense. They
would be confident that they could get their fair share of France and then
consolidate.
In the mean time, of course, we would be preparing to have three of us
(you, me, England?) remove the other two and head into an endgame. Again, I
like that because it's entirely in our control and advantageous to all
three of us, so we don't have to depend on anyone making a mistake.
That propaganda that Italy sent out, by the way, has made me uncomfortable.
He just announced to the west that I had promised him an IR immediately and
that I finked out. I can't see that it's hurt me directly, but I don't like
it anyway. I won't straight out tell anyone that it's a lie, but I'm not
going to 'confirm' Italy's story either. I wish he'd run his lies past me
before he announces them to Germany!
>So, the only way I see this working out is that I forgo the attack on
>Italy this year, hoping that Italy does NOT get a build, then I make
>the attack next year while you begin a foray against Germany. My
>concern here is the timing. You have mentioned doing this in a couple
>of years. I think that will raise problems as mentioned above, i.e.,
>what will Italy be doing for those years. How will it play out if we
>do it next year? This may be the right time in regards to Germany as
>well as we don't really want him getting too many builds out of France.
>If you want to wait longer than that, what do you see the three of us
>(AIR) doing in the next two years?
Here's what I'm looking for. I'd like to see either E or G, and preferably
E, get into a solid position before the next round of stabbing. That way we
can convince Cal (let's say) to attack Germany, knowing that you will be
ending any Italian threat of breaking out into the Atlantic, and setting up
a nice little tripod for the ending. Whereas if I start my next project
(attacking Germany) while England still needs Germany to get rid of France,
then I put England in a bad spot and he'd have to call a truce with France
and help Germany. As far as I can tell that's what he'd have to do. It's
what I'd do.
>One option is to not make the move on Germany immediately. For example,
>next year we support Aegean to Con and I move Greece to Aegean. In
>the fall Aeg and Con support Ank to Smyrna, and I make the stab. At
>that point we've gone two years without an obvious move on Germany
>and G/E should be deeply embedded in France. Now we can coordinate
>the destruction of the Italian fleet in Con preferably ending with
>your fleet in Con so it can head west (aren't I a trusting soul (<: ).
>At the same time we can begin the assualt on Germany.
>
>As long as we can keep Italy in Tyrolia so that I can stab to Venice,
>I think this timing will work out. What do you think?
Seems ideal, actually.
We might also try to pseudoskirmish our armies so that they end up in
places like Bohemia and Galicia, so we've got a quick attack on Germany.
And if Italy does back out of Tyrolia, you could go there. Your excuse to
Italy would be that you're flanking Munich, and your excuse to Germany
would be that you're flanking Venice, and in fact the point would be that
you'd be doing both. (And it is your territory, after all, so you're
entitled to have an army there!)
For my part, I think my main problem will be my builds. I might waive one.
I must be able to build at least one northern fleet when I'm ready to stab
G, right? What I don't want is a huge heavy army, which would be difficult
to mobilize against Germany and anyway would bottleneck. But building a
northern fleet tips my hand immediately, since I have to choose a coast.
Maybe I'll load an army into Scandinavia. But I have to be very careful not
to antagonize England with it.
>As far as the long term, I agree in your basic scenario, but I think
>that it might be preferable to have France the one Western power, not
>England. England is a much tougher nut for us to crack, he can close
>of your northern fleets much more effectively and has the fleets to
>stop us in MAO. France working with us will have the benefit of the
>history of conflict they have already started, and of having a more
>balanced force. We can deal with the armies, the fleets are the
>problem, so this is a benefit to us.
I agree, but as I said earlier, I don't see how we can get France into that
position.
Let's see. Well, England is always harder to crack than France, as you say.
On the other hand, between us we'd have a *lot* of units when the time
came, and I have the northern coasts, so there's no stalemate line unless
England can destroy all my northern fleets and take Stp. So if it came to
that, we could just deprive England of his continental centers with our
armies, and overwhelm him slowly with new fleets.
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>It must be one of those talents I have that I exercise without realizing
it.
Yeah, I have that problem too. Retroactive genius... ;)
>I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get into the endgame I want, with
>you and me plus either Austria or Italy. My problem is timing.
>Specifically, I have to figure out how I am (we are) going to do this
>without me growing too much in the interrim and spoiling everything.
>
>I just wanted you to know that I'm aware of this potential difficulty, and
>I don't intend to let things get out of hand, I am going to be careful that
>I don't *force* you to attack me!
I _have_ given that some thought and I think the mere fact that you're aware
of it will be sufficient for me, certainly for now anyway. If there's any
problem, I'm sure we'll discuss it and work out an "evening" of position if
necessary. ;) Things are going quite well and our alliance in the grand
strategy of things is probably a complete secret to even the most insightful
observer (knock on wooden blocks... )
Kordially,
King Kal
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Right.
> Well, actually, I think maybe a southern AIR would be *less* worrisome to
> the northerners. Because AIR is just too many powers, they would know it
> was going to break up. And Germany and England would be very happy, I
> think, to see Italy cut the legs out from under France's defense. They
> would be confident that they could get their fair share of France and then
> consolidate.
>
True as long as they are reasonably confident that the AIR is going to
break up. I just don't want to end up providing the mortar that cements
the E/G alliance!
> In the mean time, of course, we would be preparing to have three of us
> (you, me, England?) remove the other two and head into an endgame. Again, I
> like that because it's entirely in our control and advantageous to all
> three of us, so we don't have to depend on anyone making a mistake.
>
> That propaganda that Italy sent out, by the way, has made me uncomfortable.
> He just announced to the west that I had promised him an IR immediately and
> that I finked out. I can't see that it's hurt me directly, but I don't like
> it anyway. I won't straight out tell anyone that it's a lie, but I'm not
> going to 'confirm' Italy's story either. I wish he'd run his lies past me
> before he announces them to Germany!
>
He did the same sort of thing to me. Actually, he asked me for a fake letter
that he could quote from (which I provided) then changed things around a bit
before sending it to Germany, then let me know what he'd done.
> Here's what I'm looking for. I'd like to see either E or G, and preferably
> E, get into a solid position before the next round of stabbing. That way we
> can convince Cal (let's say) to attack Germany, knowing that you will be
> ending any Italian threat of breaking out into the Atlantic, and setting up
> a nice little tripod for the ending. Whereas if I start my next project
> (attacking Germany) while England still needs Germany to get rid of France,
> then I put England in a bad spot and he'd have to call a truce with France
> and help Germany. As far as I can tell that's what he'd have to do. It's
> what I'd do.
>
>
This is reasonable.
> >One option is to not make the move on Germany immediately. For example,
> >next year we support Aegean to Con and I move Greece to Aegean. In
> >the fall Aeg and Con support Ank to Smyrna, and I make the stab. At
> >that point we've gone two years without an obvious move on Germany
> >and G/E should be deeply embedded in France. Now we can coordinate
> >the destruction of the Italian fleet in Con preferably ending with
> >your fleet in Con so it can head west (aren't I a trusting soul (<: ).
> >At the same time we can begin the assualt on Germany.
> >
> >As long as we can keep Italy in Tyrolia so that I can stab to Venice,
> >I think this timing will work out. What do you think?
>
> Seems ideal, actually.
> We might also try to pseudoskirmish our armies so that they end up in
> places like Bohemia and Galicia, so we've got a quick attack on Germany.
> And if Italy does back out of Tyrolia, you could go there. Your excuse to
> Italy would be that you're flanking Munich, and your excuse to Germany
> would be that you're flanking Venice, and in fact the point would be that
> you'd be doing both. (And it is your territory, after all, so you're
> entitled to have an army there!)
>
Aha! Agreeement! I really have no problems with your thinking on this,
it parallels mine closely. My concern however has always been timing. I
have to worry about Italy, and that has been my concern with waiting too
long. I really do not want to see him getting a build.
As to pseudo skirmishing, we again have a timing issue. If you kick me
out of Galacia this year, I end up in Bohemia one year earlier than we
really want me to be there. One option is for me to remain in Gal this
year (perhaps a Gal/Tri bounce in Vie?) which you could then (only if
necessary of course) call a violation of our agreement that I would
move out. You have a logical reason for your units to hold of course,
Ukr s Rum, War hold as I'm in Gal. Then a spring eviction from Gal
with a retreat to Boh and some more mucking about in the fall.
> For my part, I think my main problem will be my builds. I might waive one.
> I must be able to build at least one northern fleet when I'm ready to stab
> G, right? What I don't want is a huge heavy army, which would be difficult
> to mobilize against Germany and anyway would bottleneck. But building a
> northern fleet tips my hand immediately, since I have to choose a coast.
> Maybe I'll load an army into Scandinavia. But I have to be very careful not
> to antagonize England with it.
>
Yes, this has been another of my concerns. I'm also heading towards being
army heavy, but I don't see where I can avoid that this year as I think
Italy would scream about a fleet build (he was pretty strongly against it
last year). On the other hand, the army in Trieste is more useful anyway
for the moment. You should hopefully have a build this year and then
one the next year. Building in Sev this year and moving it to Arm would
make the Turkish campaign easier and make it more sure that we can
squeeze Italy out, but it also makes you more army heavy and puts a lot
of Russian power in the south. (is it getting hot in here? (<: ). On
the other hand, a waive the next year might be seen as a warning sign by
the north? Of course, if you've got England lined up, telegraphing with
a fleet in STP/SC might not be too bad.
> >As far as the long term, I agree in your basic scenario, but I think
> >that it might be preferable to have France the one Western power, not
> >England. England is a much tougher nut for us to crack, he can close
> >of your northern fleets much more effectively and has the fleets to
> >stop us in MAO. France working with us will have the benefit of the
> >history of conflict they have already started, and of having a more
> >balanced force. We can deal with the armies, the fleets are the
> >problem, so this is a benefit to us.
>
> I agree, but as I said earlier, I don't see how we can get France into that
> position.
>
Details, details (<:. You are probably right.
> Let's see. Well, England is always harder to crack than France, as you say.
> On the other hand, between us we'd have a *lot* of units when the time
> came, and I have the northern coasts, so there's no stalemate line unless
> England can destroy all my northern fleets and take Stp. So if it came to
> that, we could just deprive England of his continental centers with our
> armies, and overwhelm him slowly with new fleets.
>
>
Ayup, as we say up hear. While I am of course keeping the lines of
communication open to everyone, do you think it advisable to conduct
joint negotiations with England, that is, should I be making supporting
overtures to him and bringing the A/R out into the open as far as he
is concerned, or are you playing it more as an R/E with one of I/A
probably joining in?
Kaiser D
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Aha! Agreeement! I really have no problems with your thinking on this,
>it parallels mine closely. My concern however has always been timing. I
>have to worry about Italy, and that has been my concern with waiting too
>long. I really do not want to see him getting a build.
Well, he probably won't get a build this year.
If he does get a build, I could very probably get him to sail west. I can't
be sure of it, he might insist on staying east, but if I just refuse to
attack you he would be doomed to a no-growth game by staying east.
Even if he does stay east, you'd have him seriously outnumbered.
>As to pseudo skirmishing, we again have a timing issue. If you kick me
>out of Galacia this year, I end up in Bohemia one year earlier than we
>really want me to be there.
Yeah, that's true. Though if you end up in Boh, you could just refrain from
attacking Germany for a year.
> One option is for me to remain in Gal this
>year (perhaps a Gal/Tri bounce in Vie?) which you could then (only if
>necessary of course) call a violation of our agreement that I would
>move out. You have a logical reason for your units to hold of course,
>Ukr s Rum, War hold as I'm in Gal. Then a spring eviction from Gal
>with a retreat to Boh and some more mucking about in the fall.
Either way is ok with me.
>You should hopefully have a build this year and then
>one the next year. Building in Sev this year and moving it to Arm would
>make the Turkish campaign easier and make it more sure that we can
>squeeze Italy out, but it also makes you more army heavy and puts a lot
>of Russian power in the south. (is it getting hot in here? (<: ).
Hm.
Yeah, I really don't want another southern army! But I guess it wouldn't
actually harm me.
>On the other hand, a waive the next year might be seen as a warning sign by
>the north? Of course, if you've got England lined up, telegraphing with
>a fleet in STP/SC might not be too bad.
I think that would be bad. It would cause Germany to cease the attack on
France, cause England to lose his potential builds, and make it impossible
for us to get our NW ally.
But waiving might be ok. Even if it seems like I'm going to build F Stp
(which would be a correct appearance!), I wouldn't be committing to a
coast. E and G could still stick together, still attack France, etc.
>Ayup, as we say up hear. While I am of course keeping the lines of
>communication open to everyone, do you think it advisable to conduct
>joint negotiations with England, that is, should I be making supporting
>overtures to him and bringing the A/R out into the open as far as he
>is concerned, or are you playing it more as an R/E with one of I/A
>probably joining in?
Good question.
As usual, it's a timing question. I do think we ought to approach England
at some point. I'm a little worried about spooking him by approaching too
soon. A player is very apt to get the impression that the alliance that is
approaching him is the solid one, and that he's being strung along or
something. I don't know, but my instinct is to wait until England feels
he's on good solid ground, which means waiting until he gets a bite or two
out of France. If he feels like he's in control of his sphere, and also
that he's big enough to contend if the Big Plan starts to work, then he's
going to be more likely to come along on the ride.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
So, what do you want to do?
Just attending to my own center count, I'd sit tight this move.
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I think generally sitting tight is the right idea. I'll probably bounce
in Vie to give the view that I don't really trust Italy. You can use
Ukr to support Rum to show you don't really trust me. Unless Italy
attacks me in Greece, and I doubt he will, support from Rum for my
attack on Bul would be superfluous. I'll gladly use it if given, won't
take offense if you decide not to.
Kaiser D
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings King Cal,
Glad to finally see an end to all the basketball jabber. Just checking
in to say hello and see how things are going. You three seem to have
worked a nice demilitarization of Scandinavia. I assume that you are
expecting Germany to return Bel to you and are reasonably confident in
this. Personally, I'm just sitting here trying to make sure the meat
in the middle of the sandwich doesn't get squashed. Hopefully a nice
big solid mass of red armies will help discourage that. Any inklings
you get that something might happen would of course be greatly
appreciated. I wish I had something to pass on to you, but their seems
to be a general pall of silence in this game (except for the basketball!)
Kaiser D
Message from Austria to France in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings Good King Han,
Nothing new to say really, just wanted to keep in touch. I'm fairly
certain that Italy is willing to help you out if you get in touch with
him. I've covered the bases well enough that there's really no
incentive for him to do anything else with that army.
Every indication I have is that England expects to keep Belgium, so
as I mentioned in a previous message, I expect that if you were to
have Italy support you to Mun, you might actually get in!
Keep up the good fight!
Regards,
Kaiser Dave
Message from Austria to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings fellow Kaiser,
I wish I could really tell you what Italy was up to in Tyrolia, or that
you could tell me. Not being the most trusting sort and having a few
spare armies, I covered myself well enough that I don't think he's going
to try anything with the army, although if he goes for Greece he might
as well do that as well. Have you heard anything that might indicate
his intentions?
Haven't heard a word from your neighbors to the west and north. I like
your play into Belgium though. A strong attack on France, and gives you
the upper hand against England, pretty much guaranteeing that he sticks
with you this year. Well done.
Regards,
The Southern Kaiser
Message from Germany to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Italy sent a contrite message about Tyrolia. He said it had to do with a
failed anti-Austrian campaign. I would have expected him to be sending
you many missives trying to patch things up. Other rumors have him in
there at France's request. I don't see it. All Italy could accomplish is
to antagonize me to no purpose. I'm not about to leave Munich
vulnerable. So I don't know what he's up to.
What's the story with you and Russia? Not looking too friendly, I must
say.
The Other Kaiser
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
I'm willing to use my A Ank to support you into either Smy or Con, your
choice. Please advise. Also indicate whether you want support for convoyed
army or fleet.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
Haven't heard from you. We need to decide about Munich.
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I accept your support -- sorry so short lately; now that dad is fixed up,
I have a lot of catching up to do at work :-(
I'll pull up a map and let you know which unit to support.
Haven't heard from Hohn about Munich, so I don't know what he's ordering
in Bur so I don't know what to order in Tyr yet.
Manus
Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Haven't heard from you. We need to decide about Munich.
Sorry; been swamped at work.
I will issue the support order if you want it, but it will almost
certainly be cut, I suspect. Alternatively, if you want to support me
into MUN, I'd certainly appreciate it, but I also certainly don't
expect it.
I will do whatever you want me to do. Please just let me know.
Thanks,
Hohn
Message from France to Master in 'pouchtoo':
I am thoroughly disgusted with my play this game, which has been
overly conservative, tentative and uninspired. Probably at least part
of this is because of my success in the last game, I think.
I am also disappointed that work issues have prevented me from
participating more fully in this game. For that, I apologize to you.
Hohn
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
I have confirmation from Cal that Burgundy is scheduled for a supported
attack. I am willing to support you into Munich. Want to do it?
Manus
Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Cal,
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> I have confirmation from Cal that Burgundy is scheduled for a supported
> attack. I am willing to support you into Munich. Want to do it?
Yes! Thank you, thank you, thank you. ;-)
My offer to you of all of Iberia and MAR should things against Cal
look grim still stands, btw. I'd much rather you have them than him.
When you also consider the armada heading my way to bust into the Med
shortly, I think Italian ships on the horizon would be better sooner
than later, but that's just IMO...
Hohn
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
It'll be Tunis convoyed in. I want to leave my fleets as far west
as possible and even start sending some back there to help out Hohn
and/or gobble his centers.
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
You're welcome. I will try to move my fleets west ASAP.
Sorry so short. Like you, I'm swamped.
Manus
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
Cal:
Sorry so long in getting back to you. Tyrolia is where it is on the urging
of Jamie (and with German foreknowledge). Jamie suggested it could be
arranged that Tyrolia would go on to Vienna, but he didn't quite follow
through with his half of the deal, and now Dave is none too happy (as I had
convinced him to move east, so I am left high and dry here, and with Venice
wide open to boot). I admit that after I got to Tyrolia, Hohn wrote me asking
to make plans for Munich. My intention is not to interfere up there, but to
lead Hohn to think I will and yet come out of it still on Hohn's good side
after an oopsy.
I will indeed try to move my fleets toward certain coasts soon. Save some
snails for me, will ya?
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
In case I didn't say, we'll be trying for Con. Your support will
probably be cut, but hey, if at first we don't succeed....
Manus
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Actually, hold off on issuing orders while I try to determine Turkey's
moves. Maybe Smy would be better than Con. I'll try to keep Ank uncut.
Manus
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
We need to talk. Jamie is just making it that way (as you predicted).
I wish I had time now to rant and rave and plan, but I have to wait.
I'll mail you tonight.
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
We're taking your advice and using Tyr support help Hohn into Mun.
Maybe you could head for Vie and run a unit or two north like me?
I've always liked Austrian A SIL S Italian A TYR-MUN, followed by
Italian A MUN S Austrian A SIL-BER. (And I've never been any kind
of fan of Austrian A TRI-VEN :-)
Anyway, sorry I've had no time to write. Busy busy.
Manus
Message from England to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>
>Greetings King Cal,
>
>Glad to finally see an end to all the basketball jabber.
Man, I was getting annoyed! :(
>Just checking
>in to say hello and see how things are going. You three seem to have
>worked a nice demilitarization of Scandinavia. I assume that you are
>expecting Germany to return Bel to you and are reasonably confident in
>this.
Well, here's hoping anyway...
>Personally, I'm just sitting here trying to make sure the meat
>in the middle of the sandwich doesn't get squashed. Hopefully a nice
>big solid mass of red armies will help discourage that. Any inklings
>you get that something might happen would of course be greatly
>appreciated. I wish I had something to pass on to you, but their seems
>to be a general pall of silence in this game (except for the basketball!)
I don't have a lot to report to you either. What's happening here in the
west seems fairly obvious to all and my "sources" in the east aren't exactly
bubbling fonts of information. Everybody is playing it pretty coy as to
what will happen after/if Turkey bites the dust.
Kordially,
King Kal
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Sorry so long in getting back to you. Tyrolia is where it is on the urging
>of Jamie (and with German foreknowledge). Jamie suggested it could be
>arranged that Tyrolia would go on to Vienna, but he didn't quite follow
>through with his half of the deal, and now Dave is none too happy (as I had
>convinced him to move east, so I am left high and dry here, and with Venice
>wide open to boot). I admit that after I got to Tyrolia, Hohn wrote me
asking
>to make plans for Munich. My intention is not to interfere up there, but
to
>lead Hohn to think I will and yet come out of it still on Hohn's good side
>after an oopsy.
You sure Germany had foreknowledge of that? He gave me the impression he
was surprised by it. Actually, come to think of it, I guess he really
didn't say that as much as he implied he was a bit worried by it, or at
least by the potential of what you and Hohn could do with it. Ah well, I'm
not worried by it now.
>I will indeed try to move my fleets toward certain coasts soon. Save some
>snails for me, will ya?
Do my best! :) Also, what I wrote in my earlier letter still stands as
regards my promise to stay back of the Pie-Naf line after France is out.
Til the moves...
King Kal
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
> Maybe you could head for Vie and run a unit or two north like me?
> I've always liked Austrian A SIL S Italian A TYR-MUN, followed by
> Italian A MUN S Austrian A SIL-BER. (And I've never been any kind
> of fan of Austrian A TRI-VEN :-)
>
I was sort of thinking of a bounce in Vie to give the impression I
don't trust you. However, since I should have a build coming, there
is no loss of position by that, I just build in Vie. I can then
easily move Vie - Boh, Gal - Sil for a strong attack.
As always Russia is less than excited at seeing more Austrian armies.
I can't see any reason for an Austrian fleet though unless you are
considering a move on France next and would like the support?
> Anyway, sorry I've had no time to write. Busy busy.
No problem, very understandable under the circumstances
-Dave
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
I have ordered my A Ank to support Tun-Con. I'll change it if you tell me
to, but I had already sent in a provisional order for the army (in keeping
with sound and polite practice) so I couldn't just not order it.
It seems fairly unlikely that the Turkish A Smy would be unsupported, since
the F Eas has nothing else to do. I suppose he might try Con S Smy-Ank,
Eas-Smy, but that's a pretty hopeless move.
As far as attacking France is concerned, it can be very nice to have an A
Tun if that's what you're going to do (you get a F Wes and convoy to Spa).
But if you're more interested in defending France, then of course you want
fleets over there in the west and the A Tun would be useless.
Anyway, use your judgment and tell me how to order the A Ank, I'll change
the order if you tell me to.
Tsar J
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
I sent in some "safe" orders, but I'm more than willing to change them.
Show me the way! I'm just looking for something constructive to do.
Let me know. I'll be up early in the AM.
Steve
Retreat
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I didn't get to me e-mail until now, and so I've decided to
just send in some moves that are probably sure to fail rather than to
negotiate beyond the deadline and move such that people would know it,
but we should hopefully have better luck connecting next phase.
Message from Italy to England and Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Well, as you can see, I was true to my word. I managed to make Hohn think
I'm helping him while not doing anything successful on his behalf. Truth
be told, though, I was surprised to see my support taken. I thought sure
I had him sufficiently confused such that we would each be supporting the
other. That was my plan. Ah well, no harm done.
Onward!
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
Damn! Now what?!
As pro-French as they come,
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Nioce touch that double-bounce in Vienna. I'm just not to be trusted! :-)
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Success, Batman!
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
I can't believe that worked. Of all the double and triple talking Jamie
has been doing, that was the one thing that he never said he'd do was support
me in. I virtually demanded he do so, just to try and stop his rather
out-and-out growth complex (whether I'd do it or not was not certain, but
I didn't want him overrunning you the way he was talking about), but he wrote
back saying no. Here is the beginning of the mail I had started to write
to you, but never finished because I didn't get time to see what we could
do in the way of a plan to counter him:
Okay, I've had it with Jamie. First he convinces me to head into Tyr,
saying he'll help me into Vienna, then he doesn't move to do so
and I do. So Dave is none too happy and I've been trying to explain
that one away (and unfortunately he's still in Trieste).
Now Jamie goes talk-talk with the situation in your nation. He started
by telling me to either go after Greece or tap Smy to cut support for
Con. Reading between the lines wasn't hard: "Dear Doge: I am
taking all of Turkey and putting a fleet on the Med." So I confront
him on it (kind of) and all I get is confirmation.
This turn he is counting on you going defensive and so he wants to twist
the knife into you all the more. He's thinking you will double-support
Con, leaving Ank support uncut, so he will attack Con from Bla. Rum will
hit Bul and he wants me to tap Smy for him. But he says if I don't tap
Smy I should attack Greece. But of course he won't tap Ser for me. And
of course, there is no "I will tap Smy and Bul and support you into Con"
talk. So best case he gets Ank (if he holds it as he expects) AND Con,
and I get squat. Best case for me, I get Gre, but that's not going to
happen with Austria on the alert now that Jamie put me into Tyrolia, and
Serbian support for Greece is sure and uncut. So the ONLY case for
me is I get Jack.
So I got to looking and my only retalliation would be through you.
That's where my message left off, and I ended up writing you that short
"we need to talk" message. I moved the way I did, never expecting
support from Jamie (that was what I meant by the "confronting him on it"
part of the message -- kind of demanded support for Tun-Con), thinking you
were doing Smy S Con, and not tapping it as Jamie wanted. So it seems he
snookered me again, if for no other reason but that he convinced me you'd
be defending Con. I don't know if he could tell I was hacked at him for
not being more sharing, or what, or if it was in his plans all along to
support me in. My best guess is that he planned to get me to do his bidding,
while he went defensive to protect Ank and ordered support for my convoy
thinking it wouldn't happen, and then claim I missed a message or something.
I guess all the convoluted explanations don't matter now. Fact is, I
am in Con whether he likes it or not, whether you like it or not, and
whether I like it or not.
So now what?
Manus
Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
Well, that turn worked out reasonably well for us. No centres, but a good
position overall anyway.
Any thoughts on tactics? I'd like to go for the Mid as it's a guaranteed
move and will set Hohn back big time. My army in Picardy can be used in a
variety of ways to coordinate with your army in Burgandy. Thoughts?
Manus has written me (yes, already!) to say that his support of Hohn to
Munich was only to lull Hohn into a feeling of security as to Manus'
willingness to prop him up. Manus says, well, here's EXACTLY what he said:
>"Message from [email protected] as Italy to England and Germany
in 'pouchtoo':
"Well, as you can see, I was true to my word. I managed to make Hohn
think I'm helping him while not doing anything successful on his
behalf. Truth be told, though, I was surprised to see my support
taken. I thought sure I had him sufficiently confused such that we
would each be supporting the other. That was my plan. Ah well, no
harm done.
"Onward!
"Manus"
He has promised to make a move against France either this turn or next,
although I really can't say as I believe him. Call it a hunch but I think
he will be a threat to us as long as he can manage to be.
That's my read on it anyway.
Comments?
King Kal
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England and Germany in
>'pouchtoo':
>
>Well, as you can see, I was true to my word.
Gracious! Miracles DO happen! (grin)
>I managed to make Hohn think I'm helping him while not doing anything
>successful on his behalf. Truth be told, though, I was surprised to
>see my support taken. I thought sure I had him sufficiently confused
>such that we would each be supporting the other. That was my plan.
>Ah well, no harm done.
Still, I'd feel more comfortable with that army in Piedmont, although not as
comfortable as I'm sure _Germany_ would be! :) Anyway, like you said, no
harm done. Nice move into Constantinople there.
Kordially,
King Kal
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Nice work carving up the Turkey there! Now if I can just make as quick work
of that pesky Frenchman, our "master plan" should work out (schedule-wise)
just nicely.
Not much else to discuss at the moment. Anything new on your front?
King Kal
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
Yes, we are in good position, but I'm worried that Turkey's fall means
we'll face attack from the east. The good news was Austria's bounce in
Vienna, which shows he's not that trusting of Italy either. I read
Russia's war-gal in the same way: it cut support for an Austrian attack
on Rumania. Perhaps enough turmoil and mistrust remains for us to have
time to finish off Hohn. I am surprised that not one of RIA helped
Turkey.
I agree with an all-out assault on Mid. Beyond that, I think we need to
see what the others build.
Re Manus's message: if he was doing what he said, why didn't he tell me
in advance?
The Kaiser
Message from France to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Damn! Now what?!
> As pro-French as they come,
This is frustrating. I am conservative when I should have been
daring, and daring when I should have been conservative. My instincts
are all messed up this game.
I should have gone with BUR-PIC, PAR S BUR-PIC, MID-BRE, GAS S
MID-BRE, SPA-POR as I'd initially entered. But no, I have to get
greedy and try for MUN. I also didn't know (that's what I get when I
don't have time to set up the board, the first time in ages that I've
ever tried to just "wing it" without detailed tactical analysis) that
Germany had that army in KIE to support MUN.
Gah. Well, hindsight's a wonderful gift. Please forgive my
bitterness; none of it is directed at you, certainly. I'm disgusted
with my play this game, and disappointed that I haven't had more time
to devote to it.
In any event, I thank you for your support, and renew my offer of
southern supply centers should you ever be able to claim them before
the ravenous Englishman.
As for what now...I disband BUR and rebuild it flexibly, to keep the
enemies guessing (I might just build A MAR anyway). Then I try to
hold out as long as I can. Try to get Germany to turn, maybe.
England's awfully out of position. Or maybe Russia will open a
northern front. They demolished Turkey more quickly than E will
demolish me.
Any other thoughts?
Hohn
Message from France to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
My dear Jamie,
Wouldn't suppose you'd be interested in opening up a northern front
now that Turkey is effectively dismantled, would you?
Hohn
Message from France to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
John,
Cal's looking pretty ripe for a knife in the back. His fleets will be
out of position. They're all going after me! If you work with Jamie,
I think the two of you would be able to get the jump on him and force
two disbands before he can adequately respond. I will be loyal
puppet. I will even be willing to cede you Paris, in fall.
Let me know if you're interested.
Hohn
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
That was good.
I am now really appreciating the observer comments, since they give me an
idea of how the board looks 'objectively', i.e., without the insider
information I have, without the insider information England has, etc. It's
hard to abstract from what you do know.
Contrary to expectations (including mine), Italy gets the build. And he's
convoyed his army further from home.
I am really thinking it's time to attack Germany. But let me have a little
chat with King Kal before settling things.
Tsar J
Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Yes, we are in good position, but I'm worried that Turkey's fall means
>we'll face attack from the east. The good news was Austria's bounce in
>Vienna, which shows he's not that trusting of Italy either. I read
>Russia's war-gal in the same way: it cut support for an Austrian
>attack
>on Rumania. Perhaps enough turmoil and mistrust remains for us to have
>time to finish off Hohn. I am surprised that not one of RIA helped
>Turkey.
I'm not. Steve's press during the wait for a new Austrian player pissed off
Jamie pretty good and I doubt if either of Austria or Italy would go against
Jamie's wishes right now. They both have a pretty vested interested in
being the one he chooses to ally with against the other after Turkey is out.
I've been agitating for a I/R "pulping" of A for some time now with Jamie
and Manus. As one of the observers noted, the Italian build will show a LOT
about their intentions. A build in Venice and you and I (and Jamie) are
laughing. A fleet in Rome or Naples and we may be in some trouble. A fleet
in Venice shows considerable confusion on Manus' part...
>I agree with an all-out assault on Mid. Beyond that, I think we need
>to see what the others build.
Absolutely. Sure glad this isn't British rules Dip.
>Re Manus's message: if he was doing what he said, why didn't he tell
>me in advance?
Heh heh, for the record, he claims he did clear the Tyrolean army with you.
Don't know if he's claiming the support for A Bur-Mun as having been cleared
with you. Anyway, as I said befoe, I think he's trying to be clever with
you and I and it's not working very well.
King Kal
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
> Gah. Well, hindsight's a wonderful gift. Please forgive my
> bitterness; none of it is directed at you, certainly. I'm disgusted
> with my play this game, and disappointed that I haven't had more time
> to devote to it.
>
You and me both. I have the selfsame excuse as you. I had no idea Germany
had an army in Kiel. From here on in, I promise to either check the board
or make sure that you do.
> In any event, I thank you for your support, and renew my offer of
> southern supply centers should you ever be able to claim them before
> the ravenous Englishman.
>
Well, with my build, I will drop a fleet in Rome and send it west to help
you out. Were I you I would start lobbying Jamie HEAVILY for some help
against the E/G team.
> Any other thoughts?
>
I only wish.
Manus
Message from Turkey to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
I can't believe it worked either. My original orders were A Bul-Con S by A
Smy, which would have stopped you. I changed them when you gave me hope via
your bogus offer of negotiation. Well done, scum!
Steve
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Nioce touch that double-bounce in Vienna. I'm just not to be trusted! :-)
>
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Success, Batman!
Yep.
So now I guess we have to decide: go for Austria next, or try to play it
A+R vs G, I vs F.
Your preference?
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
King Kal,
>Nice work carving up the Turkey there!
Yeah, got a little lucky.
> Now if I can just make as quick work
>of that pesky Frenchman, our "master plan" should work out (schedule-wise)
>just nicely.
>
>Not much else to discuss at the moment. Anything new on your front?
Nothing new.
However, I am at loose ends. I don't know what to do.
If we're going to proceed with the Master Plan, I *think* I can't attack
anybody now. Or should I now engage Austria? That would mean a schedule
about like this: this coming year I stab Austria, and Italy jumps in once
Austria is directed against me; next year I make a separate peace with
Austria, leaving Italy to do the fighting, and you and I make the move
against Germany? (Scraps of Turkey and France to be cleaned up on the
side.) Do you think the timing would work out?
The other alternative is that I just sit on my hands for a year, and the
next year I get Austria to attack Italy while you and I attack Germany, and
we plan to go into a RAE endgame (I think Austria would win a 1-on-1 fight
against Italy, esp. if I left a unit or two to kick Italy out of Turkey).
As I said, my *main* concern now is not to grow too fast, not to outgrow
the possibility of having *any* allies in the endgame. Already the
observers are calling me the frontrunner, which is a label I am not
comfortable with. I think I'm ok so far, but if I started another little
war and did well in it I would be too big even for such a friendly guy as
you.
So what do you think?
Tsar J
Message from Russia to France in 'pouchtoo':
Dear Hohn,
It's awfully tempting. And stepping in to disrupt the north and save the
valiant French resistance fighters appeals to me aesthetically (esp. after
your excellent guess this last move).
But I have a problem. I am afraid that I would do *too* well. If I grew to,
say, ten centers, I'm afraid I would cause practically all the remaining
powers to align against me. And at that point I'm afraid you would be all
too willing to let them do it.
In another game I think my plan right now would be the bold one: I'd stab
both Austria and Germany and maybe even try to snatch Norway, and rely on
France and Italy to stick with me, and then I'd have an awfully good chance
to win the game. But in this game I think that would be stupid of me. Don't
you?
Still, as I said, making a northern move now really does feel right, and I
might do it. I'll have to take the temperature of John and King Kal, maybe
one of them is close to being ready to swap sides if only a little
persuasion is applied.
Tsar J
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
Comparing notes is interesting. Manus did not tell me about ven-tyo in
advance. He claimed it was part of a failed RI v. A campaign. He did not
tell me about tyo s bur-mun in advance. He sent us that poor excuse
after the fact. Not terribly trustworthy.
France is not out yet. I hope, however, Manus sees that assisting France
is not to his advantage.
Re the east, I'm not so sure we want Austria toasted. Won't that just
put Russia way out on top? We might want to consider GAE v. RI. Your
thoughts?
The Kaiser
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
I am sorry to have turned you off from PBEM and been the
one at whom you have chosen to direct personal attacks.
You may choose to believe what you choose to believe. I choose
to believe that I am not scum, and such personal comments, I
must say, are not appreciated.
I am a Diplomacy player. Even had my overture been full of
lies, as you may choose to believe, such is the nature of the
game, is it not? Does playing to gain an advantage make someone
scum? If so, you are playing with six pieces of scum, and I
suppose we thought you knew that.
Whether you believe it or not, I sympathized with your plight
in this game and I thought you got a bad draw. I was ready to help
you and -- again, believe what you wish -- am surprised that the
convoy first of all was supported by Russia, and second of all not
defended against by you.
One bad game should not be the basis of your judgment on PBEM.
However, if you choose to make this your last game simply because
of my moves, please know that you have my sincere (PERSONAL, NOT
WITHIN THE GAME) apologies.
As for within the game, I do hereby retract my post-move offer to
negotiate your survival. From your tone of voice, I do not think
an alliance would be possible.
Manus ("Scum") Hand
Message from Italy to Turkey in 'pouchtoo':
I am sorry to have turned you off from PBEM and been the
one at whom you have chosen to direct personal attacks.
You may choose to believe what you choose to believe. I choose
to believe that I am not scum, and such personal comments, I
must say, are not appreciated.
I am a Diplomacy player. Even had my overture been full of
lies, as you may choose to believe, such is the nature of the
game, is it not? Does playing to gain an advantage make someone
scum? If so, you are playing with six pieces of scum, and I
suppose we thought you knew that.
Whether you believe it or not, I sympathized with your plight
in this game and I thought you got a bad draw. I was ready to help
you and -- again, believe what you wish -- am surprised that the
convoy first of all was supported by Russia, and second of all not
defended against by you.
One bad game should not be the basis of your judgment on PBEM.
However, if you choose to make this your last game simply because
of my moves, please know that you have my sincere (PERSONAL, NOT
WITHIN THE GAME) apologies.
As for within the game, I do hereby retract my post-move offer to
negotiate your survival. From your tone of voice, I do not think
an alliance would be possible.
Manus ("Scum") Hand
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> So now I guess we have to decide: go for Austria next, or try to play it
> A+R vs G, I vs F.
>
> Your preference?
>
My preference is to run and get Iberia before Cal does, while you and
Dave take John out. However, the concern I have with this is that we
will of course need to keep Dave in line, and that line, of course, is
the one separating Venice from Trieste.
FYI, I received a fairly harsh personal attack from Steve, and responded
as I felt it deserved. I thought he had bad luck, but to call me scum
for playing for an advantage in a game whose point is to create advantages
made me more than a bit upset.
And also FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline. I meant to send
him a long something before the deadline and did not get to it. When the
deadline hit, I had to put in orders without negotiating, and I merely
sent him something saying I was doing so. This was late at night and
I know he was not online, so even if there was something in it that would
make him change his orders, he could not have gotten it before the moves
went through.
I intend to copy this last paragraph to the Master.
Manus
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline, and I feel that I have
done nothing untoward. I may have created an advantage for myself,
even if unwittingly, but this is the way to play the game, is it not?
And I did *nothing* beyond the deadline other than put in orders and
send a single message at that time to Turkey saying only that since
negotiation beyond the deadline is forbidden, I am putting in orders.
This occurred quite late at night and I cannot imagine that Turkey
even read this single post-deadline "I am putting in orders now" message
(which contained NO negotiation points) before the moves went through.
I do think that Turkey had a bad draw in this game, and sympathized
with his plight. I do not, however, appreciate his calling me "scum"
in private press and accusing me of post-deadline negotiation in the
broadcast press.
I would appreciate it, however, if you would let the matter die here
and not copy or mention this to Turkey (though verification of the nature of
my single press message sent beyond the deadline can be made through the
Master if you wish). I have addressed a piece of private press to Turkey
essentially closing my embassy in response to his latest.
Manus
Message from Italy to France in 'pouchtoo':
FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline, and I feel that I have
done nothing untoward. I may have created an advantage for myself,
even if unwittingly, but this is the way to play the game, is it not?
And I did *nothing* beyond the deadline other than put in orders and
send a single message at that time to Turkey saying only that since
negotiation beyond the deadline is forbidden, I am putting in orders.
This occurred quite late at night and I cannot imagine that Turkey
even read this single post-deadline "I am putting in orders now" message
(which contained NO negotiation points) before the moves went through.
I do think that Turkey had a bad draw in this game, and sympathized
with his plight. I do not, however, appreciate his calling me "scum"
in private press and accusing me of post-deadline negotiation in the
broadcast press.
I would appreciate it, however, if you would let the matter die here
and not copy or mention this to Turkey (though verification of the nature
of my single press message sent beyond the deadline can be made through the
Master if you wish). I have addressed a piece of private press to Turkey
essentially closing my embassy in response to his latest.
Manus
Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline, and I feel that I have
done nothing untoward. I may have created an advantage for myself,
even if unwittingly, but this is the way to play the game, is it not?
And I did *nothing* beyond the deadline other than put in orders and
send a single message at that time to Turkey saying only that since
negotiation beyond the deadline is forbidden, I am putting in orders.
This occurred quite late at night and I cannot imagine that Turkey
even read this single post-deadline "I am putting in orders now" message
(which contained NO negotiation points) before the moves went through.
I do think that Turkey had a bad draw in this game, and sympathized
with his plight. I do not, however, appreciate his calling me "scum"
in private press and accusing me of post-deadline negotiation in the
broadcast press.
I would appreciate it, however, if you would let the matter die here
and not copy or mention this to Turkey (though verification of the
nature of my single press message sent beyond the deadline can be made
through the Master if you wish). I have addressed a piece of private
press to Turkey essentially closing my embassy in response to his latest.
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
>My preference is to run and get Iberia before Cal does, while you and
>Dave take John out.
I guess I have to agree with that.
My instinct is to try to run and save Hohn, but I don't think this would
get me a good endgame. But this way I can attack Germany and Hohn won't be
saved :)
> However, the concern I have with this is that we
>will of course need to keep Dave in line, and that line, of course, is
>the one separating Venice from Trieste.
Right.
>FYI, I received a fairly harsh personal attack from Steve, and responded
>as I felt it deserved. I thought he had bad luck, but to call me scum
>for playing for an advantage in a game whose point is to create advantages
>made me more than a bit upset.
Now, now.
Steve flies off the handle easily. This is what made us decide in the end
that he would be the better first victim, right? And frankly, I think this
aspect of his personality made him easier to kill. It made him predictable.
My approach is, *say* to him whatever I think will make his moves easy to
predict, and if I want revenge for his words, I get it on the board (and
mission accomplished).
>And also FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline.
I never thought you did.
Ok, so what we'll do is something like this: you go make France cave in,
and Dave and I will try to crush Germany. King Kal will assist you, but I
bet that soon he'll assist us too!
Please do keep a little something back at home so that Dave doesn't decide
you are a very easy target. And I'll do likewise.
Tsar J
Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Manus,
I don't know what you are talking about. This is the first I have heard
of post-deadline negotiation by anyone in this game.
Perplexed,
The Kaiser
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> >My preference is to run and get Iberia before Cal does, while you and
> >Dave take John out.
>
> I guess I have to agree with that.
> My instinct is to try to run and save Hohn, but I don't think this would
> get me a good endgame. But this way I can attack Germany and Hohn won't be
> saved :)
>
Well, my run west will be made on invitation of Hohn ("come save me and/or
eat me before King Kal can!" he's been pleading), and I have now promised
to do so.
> Ok, so what we'll do is something like this: you go make France cave in,
> and Dave and I will try to crush Germany. King Kal will assist you, but I
> bet that soon he'll assist us too!
>
Indeed so!
> >FYI, I received a fairly harsh personal attack from Steve, and responded
> >as I felt it deserved. I thought he had bad luck, but to call me scum
> >for playing for an advantage in a game whose point is to create advantages
> >made me more than a bit upset.
>
> Now, now.
>
> Steve flies off the handle easily. This is what made us decide in the end
> that he would be the better first victim, right? And frankly, I think this
> aspect of his personality made him easier to kill. It made him predictable.
>
Well, you know me (actually, maybe you don't, but) when I said "more than a
bit upset," it doesn't mean much. While Steve may fly off his handle, I don't
think I've *ever* let go of mine. Not much truly phases me. In fact, I can't
remember the last time I was phased. :-) Certainly it didn't happen in a
game of Diplomacy!
> My approach is, *say* to him whatever I think will make his moves easy to
> predict, and if I want revenge for his words, I get it on the board (and
> mission accomplished).
>
We have both pursued this same policy.
> >And also FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline.
>
> I never thought you did.
>
I appreciate that.
> >the one separating Venice from Trieste.
>
> Right.
>
> Please do keep a little something back at home so that Dave doesn't decide
> you are a very easy target. And I'll do likewise.
>
Yes, I indend to, but given the current disposition of my forces, I'm
looking for suggestions about how to look strong at home. I would like
to assert a claim to Smyrna, which would give each of the AIR team three
builds from our efforts (Rum, Ank, Swe for you; Gre, Bul, Ser for Dave,
and Con, Smy, Tun for me). Will you support me in this claim?
Manus
Message from Italy to Master in 'pouchtoo':
Thank you for your response. My orders did indeed go in with my, "oh
gee, now I'm late; I'm sending in orders" message. I appreciate your
position and will not act in any way to "stretch the spirit" of the rules.
I nearly asked you for a deadline extension, but decided I had held up
the game too often as it was.
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful,
Manus
Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
> I agree, the Italian build will tell. Manus has many friends, no
> doubt, except in Bavaria... Perhaps the Kaiser should expect
> some Deutsch correspondence from the Osterreichers.
>
We've got them all fooled, eh John?
:-)
Manus
Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
> I don't know what you are talking about. This is the first I have heard
> of post-deadline negotiation by anyone in this game.
>
It was an accusation leveled in a broadcast by Turkey. At least I *think*
it was a broadcast. Maybe it wasn't and now I've egg on my face for blowing
the issue out to the other players. If so, oops!!
Manus
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> That was good.
>
Yes, although I of course have some mixed feelings about the Italian build,
but all the indications are that he's lining up to head west and will build
a fleet.
> I am now really appreciating the observer comments, since they give me an
> idea of how the board looks 'objectively', i.e., without the insider
> information I have, without the insider information England has, etc. It's
> hard to abstract from what you do know.
>
I agree. I'm also quite happy with the way it is trending, and with what
I can read of the west. I think that the cooperation between the three of
us is very well hidden at the moment. It's obvious that we are working to
take out Turkey, but the way we did it this turn (the bounce in Vie, the
tap on Gal, the Hold for Rum) made it very hard to see the degree of
cooperation between us.
> Contrary to expectations (including mine), Italy gets the build. And he's
> convoyed his army further from home.
>
Yes, and look at all those nasty little green pieces around my dots. (<:.
So far, the indications are that he is planning on heading west, to get
a piece of Hohn before he is gone (blame me for the bad poetry (<:). He
has said though that he'd like Smyrna and would like me to support his
claim. I was mildly supportive in my first response, no commitments yet,
but said that I'd like to see fewer of his forces down there. I suggested
that the army alone would be enough, with Ank s Con - Smy and the fleets
heading west. That would of course give us a pretty free hand in the fall
depending on what we decided we want to do. Should you prefer to simply
decline to support him to Smyrna, I may make the appropriate noises to make
him think I'm supporting him, but I'll not consider it a problem.
> I am really thinking it's time to attack Germany. But let me have a little
> chat with King Kal before settling things.
>
I think I agree, but of course I also need to consider the issue of Italy.
There are a number of different scenarios that might be useful.
1) Russia goes it "solo" in the spring. You support Con to Smy, but move
your fleet into Con behind it (which Italy would NOT expect). You also kick
me out of Gal. At the same time, I might consider kicking Italy out of
Tyrolia (with his permission).
2) Austria takes on Italy in the spring. You support Con to Smy, I walk into
Con behind you. I also move into Venice. If Italy opts for the full attack
on France, which is reasonably possible I think, I could also end up in Tyr.
If we wanted the attack on Germany, I could be in Boh as well (from Gal)
while you could move to Sil from War.
3) We make the full court AIR press in the Spring. Italy moves to Pie, fleets
go to Tys and Tun and Ion, Con - Smy with Russian support. Austria moves
to Tyr, Boh and maybe even Sil. Russia moves to Pru. We leave the option
open in the fall of taking Ven/Con from Italy.
For all of these, it matters of course what you are going to build. If we
are going to press Germany you could really use something in the north. Even
an army in St Pete would be useful as it could go to Fin, leaving you free
to move Swe - Bal, Fin - Swe in the fall. Or, if you can get English support
for the move, a coordinated attack between North and Swe on Den would be nice.
It would also be nice to not have England totally back of France. So far Hohn
has not lost any centers and an E/F would still be very powerful. This lends
some powerful support to the idea of not launching an attack on Germany in
the spring. England should be able to make a reasonable claim to the right
to a build from France. A coordinated stab in the fall might take the following
form:
England gets Brest. England fails to make any supports that would help
Germany get a center. England and Russia coordinate to take Den.
Russia moves in Pru/Sil. Austria moves into Tyr/Boh/Sil.
Those are my original thoughts on it all anyway. Let me know what you hear
>from King Kal and Il Duce.
Kaiser D
_________________________________________________________
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Message from Germany to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
We certainly do have them fooled. Heck, even I am confused.
I hope you are now ready to leave off helping France. The only way for
you to gain anything is to take advantage of what England and Germany
have done to reduce him. To put the best light on your moves last turn,
you have earned his trust, with futile efforts on his behalf. In return,
he will no doubt throw as much as possible your way. As I said in an
earlier message, I am not averse to that happening. But you need to get
with the program, because it looks to me that all hell is about to break
loose in the east, so your chance for some easy pickings might pass.
I did not receive a broadcast re post-deadline negotiations. Enjoy the
omelette. :-)
Message from Germany to France in 'pouchtoo':
Hohn,
Not ignoring you. Will get back to you after the builds.
John
Message from Italy to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
To get you unconfused, my plans now are to head west, and take advantage
of the trust Hohn has in me, just as you say. You guys save some snails
for me, though, okay?? As for your south, my best intelligence is that
you are safe. Dave is worried by me and yet wanting to hit Jamie, and
Jamie talks about hitting Dave.
Sorry so short -- nearly out the door for my business trip.
Manus ("the incredible edible egg") Hand
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
First:
Yes, Italy plans to build a fleet and go get a share of France.
> He has said though that he'd like Smyrna and would like me to support
>his claim.
He told me the same thing. (That he wanted *me* to support his claim.)
I haven't answered him yet, I was going to wait to hear what you thought.
It's fine with me if he takes it. I would *rather* have him have it than I.
It will be easy to wrest it from him if I want to, and if I took it and
then stabbed for a German center, I'd be at nine centers, which is already
getting somewhat scary-looking. (I suspect that ten or eleven would push
the panic button. I am afraid that anything that reveals outright the AR
cooperation will sensitize that button, too.)
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
> > Nioce touch that double-bounce in Vienna. I'm just not to be trusted! :-)
> >
>
>
>
:-)
Thanks for not slipping on a banana and finding yourself in Venice. :-)
We need to decide what to do from here. My plan is to build and move west
to try and get some of Hohn before there's none left. You and Jamie need
to swing north to take on John. Your swing will take a long time. [Read:
please don't get distracted along the way :-}]
Will you support me in a claim to Smyrna? This would give each of the
AIR team three builds from the effort (Bul, Gre, Ser for you, Swe, Ank,
Rum for Jamie, and Tun, Con, Smy for me).
And FYI, I did *not* negotiate past the deadline. In fact, I sent Steve
one message beyond the deadline saying that because negotiating beyond
the deadline is verboten, I was simply putting orders in. That is all
it said. Thought you should know.
Manus
Message from Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
Italy now says he wants to join the fun on our side. I don't know that
we can keep him out, and we might want France to go down fast,
considering what's happening to the east.
The Kaiser
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> First:
> Yes, Italy plans to build a fleet and go get a share of France.
>
Good, glad to have confirmation.
>
> >1) Russia goes it "solo" in the spring. You support Con to Smy, but move
> >your fleet into Con behind it (which Italy would NOT expect). You also kick
> >me out of Gal. At the same time, I might consider kicking Italy out of
> >Tyrolia (with his permission).
>
> Yike.
That's my role (<:. I'm suppossed to toss out these shockers to make you
realize how much power we're sitting on. Then you reply to remind me how
delicate the diplomacy may have to be.
> I guess we are now in such a good position that we could succeed at
> practically any short-term plan. The tactics are now all on our side. It's
> the diplomacy we have to manage.
>
Agreed.
> My feeling is that our decision depends largely on what England is thinking
> these days. I have sent him a vague note, trying to get him to say whether
> he would be unhappy if Germany were invaded, but not actually asking. I
> could also try to find out if his feelings would be different knowing that
> Italy was about to cut the legs out from under the French defenses.
>
> What I (we?) want here is not a promise, but his honest feelings. No
> promise is going to bind him if he thinks you and I are really going to
> sweep the board.
>
Agreed again.
> With full English endorsement, I would likely build A Stp.
> Otherwise, I think I'll probably build A Mos. Hey, it looks dumb, but it
> looked dumb last time I did it too and that worked great.
>
Again I think you're right here.
> >It would also be nice to not have England totally back of France. So far
Hohn
> >has not lost any centers and an E/F would still be very powerful.
>
> I don't exactly follow you there. E/F would be powerful in what situation,
> against whom? I would have thought that the alliance you and I had least to
> fear was E/F!
>
I don't think we have a lot to fear from it, but I have a fair bit of
respect for Hohn's ability, although I've never played against him personally.
I raised this as support for your "don't scare" them caution. If we
suddenly hammer Germany and Italy, which I think we could do, then we have
to consider that we have an intact France still in play, and if we scare
England in the process we could easily see the two of them allying. Again,
the position of England is pivotal.
> But anyway, I too think that it would be better to see England sunk a
> little deeper into France, mainly because I want him asap to be in a
> position in which he doesn't have much more potential gain from France.
> Even just taking Bre would be good enough, if he's also got a fleet in MAO,
> or knows he could force one in, or something like that.
>
Right.
> > This lends
> >some powerful support to the idea of not launching an attack on Germany in
> >the spring. England should be able to make a reasonable claim to the right
> >to a build from France. A coordinated stab in the fall might take the
> >following
> >form:
> >
> >England gets Brest. England fails to make any supports that would help
> >Germany get a center. England and Russia coordinate to take Den.
> >Russia moves in Pru/Sil. Austria moves into Tyr/Boh/Sil.
>
> I think that's my favorite.
> As I've said before, I think the best way to avoid an Everyone Against AR
> situation is to make sure England gets big and strong enough to dominate
> (or at least *feel* dominant in) the NW.
>
> Look, this general plan is looking good enough that I'm thinking it's time
> to get England in on it explicitly. Do you agree? We wouldn't tell him
> every detail, of course, but it might be time to explain to him that we
> want him as our Western partner, and that we are aware that if we grab too
> greedily we might force him to line up against us, and we're willing to
> take measures to avoid that, and so on. And along the way we could assure
> him that he doesn't have to worry if it looks like Italy might be coming
> out into the Atlantic, because the Doge will have other things to worry
> about soon enough. I'm wondering whether the whole deal is clearly enough
> to England's advantage now. I think it is.
>
>
> This is a good moment to think about it, since there is a lot of time
> available. Well, there isn't a lot of time until the adjustments, but
> there's a lot of time until the Spring movement.
>
I think I agree. The tactical situation is very strong for us right now
so I think we can play any scenario we like, the position of England is
the key. We also need to avoid scaring him however, so I think starting
with the cautious approach is best. I don't want to present him with the
A/R if it's going to send him into a panic. Let's see how he responds
to your feelers. If you think he is receptive, then we can bring it out
into the open.
We can of course postpone the move on either Germany or Italy, although
I do not think we can postpone both. Well, let's say I don't think we
should, about the only way we could would be to hold a phony war to
explain what our units were doing. Another build for Italy would really
start to present some issues for me, making a stab rather difficult,
and delaying when I could build a fleet. Optimally, we'd be able to get
your fleet into Con, mine into Ion and open up Tri for a fleet build.
I'll hold off on a note to England until I hear back from you.
Kaiser D
Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
I need a new target, mine's all broken.
Could you spare an army? Because I don't suppose you'd be too happy if I
chose either you or England. (Or would you be just as glad to see me in
Scandinavia??)
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
By the way, I have to say *something* to Germany now. So I'm just telling
him what's obvious, that I will be picking a new target. And since he would
be unhappy if I chose a northern one, I'm hinting that I'll try to invade
Austria next. I hate to say something like that, but it does seem to me
that if I don't, John will be practically forced to assume I'm about to do
something he'll hate, and he might move to Silesia or Prussia.
Thought I'd better warn you, in case he decides to "inform" on me.
Tsar J
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
Was this intended for me? Or for general broadcast? I haven't finished
reading my mail, but I know I never broached the topic of your possibly
negotiating after the deadline. In fact, it never occurred to me (and
frankly, I couldn't care less if you did) until you sent me this message.
A puzzled King Kal
>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>FYI, I did not negotiate beyond the deadline, and I feel that I have
>done nothing untoward. I may have created an advantage for myself,
>even if unwittingly, but this is the way to play the game, is it not?
>And I did *nothing* beyond the deadline other than put in orders and
>send a single message at that time to Turkey saying only that since
>negotiation beyond the deadline is forbidden, I am putting in orders.
>This occurred quite late at night and I cannot imagine that Turkey
>even read this single post-deadline "I am putting in orders now" message
>(which contained NO negotiation points) before the moves went through.
>
>I do think that Turkey had a bad draw in this game, and sympathized
>with his plight. I do not, however, appreciate his calling me "scum"
>in private press and accusing me of post-deadline negotiation in the
>broadcast press.
>
>I would appreciate it, however, if you would let the matter die here
>and not copy or mention this to Turkey (though verification of the nature
of
>my single press message sent beyond the deadline can be made through the
>Master if you wish). I have addressed a piece of private press to Turkey
>essentially closing my embassy in response to his latest.
>
>Manus
Message from Germany to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
I'm afraid you are being a bit to cryptic for my tired old brain. Can
you be bit more specific? Which army where?
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
>
> I need a new target, mine's all broken.
>
> Could you spare an army? Because I don't suppose you'd be too happy if I
> chose either you or England. (Or would you be just as glad to see me in
> Scandinavia??)
>
> Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> By the way, I have to say *something* to Germany now. So I'm just telling
> him what's obvious, that I will be picking a new target. And since he would
> be unhappy if I chose a northern one, I'm hinting that I'll try to invade
> Austria next. I hate to say something like that, but it does seem to me
> that if I don't, John will be practically forced to assume I'm about to do
> something he'll hate, and he might move to Silesia or Prussia.
>
Quite reasonable. As you say, you must say something. I had to exchange
a few notes with him before the last deadline in which I implied that
I was worried about the R/I and that I had made the bad guess of thinking
you were the greater danger so I had moved your way only to have Italy
head into Tyrolia. I've been working to give the impression, successfully
I think, that I am concerned about both of you, that I certainly don't have
any firm alliance with either of you, and that I'm trying to work out how
to avoid having you sandwhich me and that I basically have no real knowledge
of what either of you is planning. We've both agreed that not only don't
we know what Italy is up to, but he probably doesn't either.
> Thought I'd better warn you, in case he decides to "inform" on me.
>
Thank you.
Kaiser D
Message from Russia to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
If I attack Austria, I will need your help.
Tsar "Plain Speakin'" J
Build
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
I tried to respond to this from work last night, but I had some problems
getting it through. If you get two similar copies of this note, I
apologize.
>Nothing new.
>
>However, I am at loose ends. I don't know what to do.
>
>If we're going to proceed with the Master Plan, I *think* I can't attack
>anybody now. Or should I now engage Austria? That would mean a schedule
>about like this: this coming year I stab Austria, and Italy jumps in once
>Austria is directed against me; next year I make a separate peace with
>Austria, leaving Italy to do the fighting, and you and I make the move
>against Germany? (Scraps of Turkey and France to be cleaned up on the
>side.) Do you think the timing would work out?
I think so, but the trick would be to regain Austria's trust after a year.
Maybe if you can manage to take a centre or two from him, he'll grasp at any
chance of you loosening your grip. Of course, by going through with the
attack on Germany, you should convince him of your sincerity... ;)
The key to this whole thing will be exactly where Manus puts his build. I
don't know if I've ever seen one single build by a medium sized power hold
so much influence over the course of a game. If he builds a fleet, I more
or less have to plan on an attack in the Med and must expect a great deal of
difficulty in sticking to the "master plan". If he builds an army,
everything you and I have planned becomes a LOT easier. I'm hoping you can
use your considerable influence with Manus to get that army built. Since he
and Austria are both in desperate need of staying on good terms with you,
you have a good chance to sway him.
I feel like Hari Seldon trying to predict the effects of individual actions
on the "Seldon Plan".
>The other alternative is that I just sit on my hands for a year, and the
>next year I get Austria to attack Italy while you and I attack Germany, and
>we plan to go into a RAE endgame (I think Austria would win a 1-on-1 fight
>against Italy, esp. if I left a unit or two to kick Italy out of Turkey).
I don't see as where waiting will do anything other than allow Austria and
Italy (or for that matter, Germany) to consolidate their positions. We must
maintain some momentum for now.
>As I said, my *main* concern now is not to grow too fast, not to outgrow
>the possibility of having *any* allies in the endgame. Already the
>observers are calling me the frontrunner, which is a label I am not
>comfortable with. I think I'm ok so far, but if I started another little
>war and did well in it I would be too big even for such a friendly guy as
>you.
I agree that you shouldn't grow too big too fast or you'll be setting
yourself up as a target. After the German stab, you and I will have enough
of the appearance of a juggernaut to alarm the rest of the board into an
anti-E/R alliance as it is without our causing it to happen too early. Our
"master plan" relies on everyone else being in a state of chaos when we
declare ourselves.
Anyway, I'll let you know if I hear anything interesting and you work hard
on Manus.
King Kal
Message from England to Germany in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Comparing notes is interesting. Manus did not tell me about ven-tyo in
>advance. He claimed it was part of a failed RI v. A campaign. He did not
>tell me about tyo s bur-mun in advance. He sent us that poor excuse
>after the fact. Not terribly trustworthy.
My thoughts exactly.
>France is not out yet. I hope, however, Manus sees that assisting France
>is not to his advantage.
Depends on how worried he is about the E/G "juggernaut". I've been pouring
out all kinds of sweetsop as to my friendly intentions towards him and the
Med in general. I'm just hoping that he has enough A/R-induced paranoia to
not want to turn his back on them.
>Re the east, I'm not so sure we want Austria toasted. Won't that just
>put Russia way out on top? We might want to consider GAE v. RI. Your
>thoughts?
Heck, I'd LOVE to see Austria survive and Italy gone. Nothing England loves
more than a fleet vacuum in the Med! But let's see what develops in the
east and decide where to throw our weight. No more than a turn or two tops.
We don't want to seem too heavy handed and force a A/I/R against us. That's
an event that is faced all too often by E/G.
>Message from [email protected] as Germany to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Italy now says he wants to join the fun on our side. I don't know that
>we can keep him out, and we might want France to go down fast,
>considering what's happening to the east.
I'd be more than happy to see Italy throw some weight against Marseilles or
Spain. As I said above, I can't see him trusting A/R enough to devote a
large force to the west and if he only takes one centre, he can be easily
kicked out.
Komments?
King Kal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
King K.,
>The key to this whole thing will be exactly where Manus puts his build. I
>don't know if I've ever seen one single build by a medium sized power hold
>so much influence over the course of a game. If he builds a fleet, I more
>or less have to plan on an attack in the Med and must expect a great deal of
>difficulty in sticking to the "master plan".
Ok, this is bad, because he's going to build a fleet, but I refuse to let
you off the Master Plan hook.
But don't worry, I have an idea.
>I'm hoping you can
>use your considerable influence with Manus to get that army built. Since he
>and Austria are both in desperate need of staying on good terms with you,
>you have a good chance to sway him.
I can't sway him, unless maybe I inform him that Austria is about to stab.
But hold on, hear my new idea.
>I feel like Hari Seldon trying to predict the effects of individual actions
>on the "Seldon Plan".
Ooh, that takes me back a couple of decades!
So anyway, here's the idea.
Manus now intends to sail west, because he wants to go get some bits of
France while the gettin's good. Now I *think* I could get him to stab
Austria fairly soon, that is, grab Mar and Spa and then cut back and stab
Austria. But anyway it would indeed put a crimp in the Plan for Italy to
have a bunch of fleets in the west, or even in the middle of the Med. where
they could get to West Med quickly and stall any invasion of yours.
However, what I think I can do is to get Austria to wait a season or two,
or at most three, and then stick it to Italy. So he'd have his fleets
committed west, then Dave would take advantage of the opportunity, and
Italy would have to rush like hell back home.
Now this means that France collapses relatively quickly, so you are freed a
bit earlier than you might otherwise be, but at the same time you have no
fear of anybody's navy clogging up the Mediterranean or trying to break
through Gibraltar. So you can render France helpless, then help me out
against Germany. And we'd expect to go into the endgame with just you, me,
and Austria as the serious powers. And this makes the Master Plan really a
breeze, because everything I've sketched is actually to Austria's advantage
too, and nobody else could really do much of anything about it.
What do you think of the general idea? I have some more specific ideas too,
but tell me how you like the overall scheme.
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>King K.,
>Ok, this is bad, because he's going to build a fleet, but I refuse to let
>you off the Master Plan hook.
>So anyway, here's the idea.
>Manus now intends to sail west, because he wants to go get some bits of
>France while the gettin's good. Now I *think* I could get him to stab
>Austria fairly soon, that is, grab Mar and Spa and then cut back and stab
>Austria. But anyway it would indeed put a crimp in the Plan for Italy to
>have a bunch of fleets in the west, or even in the middle of the Med. where
>they could get to West Med quickly and stall any invasion of yours.
>
>However, what I think I can do is to get Austria to wait a season or two,
>or at most three, and then stick it to Italy. So he'd have his fleets
>committed west, then Dave would take advantage of the opportunity, and
>Italy would have to rush like hell back home.
>Now this means that France collapses relatively quickly, so you are freed a
>bit earlier than you might otherwise be, but at the same time you have no
>fear of anybody's navy clogging up the Mediterranean or trying to break
>through Gibraltar. So you can render France helpless, then help me out
>against Germany. And we'd expect to go into the endgame with just you, me,
>and Austria as the serious powers. And this makes the Master Plan really a
>breeze, because everything I've sketched is actually to Austria's advantage
>too, and nobody else could really do much of anything about it.
>
>What do you think of the general idea? I have some more specific ideas too,
>but tell me how you like the overall scheme.
I like the _general_ idea, but it begs the question, what are you going to
do in the meantime? It seems to be similar to your "Plan B" of a previous
letter where we thought about you just killing time for a year or so.
I wonder if the number of units Manus sends west could be kept to a minimum
by keeping him paranoid about Austria? I don't mind the idea of France
falling quickly (I rather like it, I admit ) or even of Manus grabbing a
dot or two. I just don't want the problem of taking those dots BACK from
him to be any more difficult than it is already likely to be. We wouldn't
be able to have Austria wait too long to attack. How sure are you that
David will turn his back on you when you want him to? ;)
King Kal
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>I like the _general_ idea, but it begs the question, what are you going to
>do in the meantime? It seems to be similar to your "Plan B" of a previous
>letter where we thought about you just killing time for a year or so.
I honestly have no problem with time-killing. I can take this year, for
instance, just to kill off Turkey and I'll choose not to commit myself
otherwise until he's dead.
I can spend another year rearranging my forces, if need be (but I'm hoping
it won't take two full years for you to be in position).
I can begin to attack Germany before you do, as long as it won't cause a
dangerous G/F alliance. I don't mind committing to the attack on G before
you do, that's no problem.
If I have to, I'll sit on my hands. But I don't think I'll have to.
I think the real problem will be: what do I build?
I haven't solved this one yet. :-)
>I wonder if the number of units Manus sends west could be kept to a minimum
>by keeping him paranoid about Austria?
Yep, I can do that.
Let's see, Manus will have five units. I bet he will keep his army
defending Venice. I can suggest that he keep his other army in Turkey, that
shouldn't be a problem either. Of his three fleets, I bet I can keep one as
far east as Ionian. That means he'd just have two fleets against France,
which I believe he expects to be sufficient. Manus has to plan to be
fighting Austria when I am alive and strong and ready to do it too,
otherwise he'd be facing a very powerful opponent alone. So he's apt to be
highly influenced by my timing decisions. If I want him to keep units ready
to fight Austria, I think he has to do it.
>I don't mind the idea of France
>falling quickly (I rather like it, I admit ) or even of Manus grabbing a
>dot or two. I just don't want the problem of taking those dots BACK from
>him to be any more difficult than it is already likely to be. We wouldn't
>be able to have Austria wait too long to attack. How sure are you that
>David will turn his back on you when you want him to? ;)
Pretty sure, King K., pretty sure indeed. Put it this way: I have more at
stake in that bet than you do!
The problem isn't going to be Austria waiting too long. The problem is
going to be reining him in, getting him to wait a season or two!
You want me to have him contact you about this plan? By my estimate, he's
perfectly ripe for me to sell him on it. Look, it's a great plan for him!
And what are his alternatives? Get into a protracted ground war against me?
See, I've just had a really good opening (perhaps you'd noticed). Some
observers expect me to take advantage of it by striking out all over the
place and spreading white blocks over the map. That would be foolish. But I
do intend to press my advantage in other ways... diplomatically. And since
you and Dave are also in the middle of very good openings, what the hell,
let's go for it.
When the endgame comes, I am at least *pretty* confident that you'll side
with me, not with Dave. And I hope you're at least *pretty* confident that
I'll side with you. I think the on-the-board dynamics will make that the
likeliest Final Alliance, for the reasons we discussed very early in the
game....
Tsar J
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
> I honestly have no problem with time-killing. I can take this year, for
> instance, just to kill off Turkey and I'll choose not to commit myself
> otherwise until he's dead.
> I can spend another year rearranging my forces, if need be (but I'm hoping
> it won't take two full years for you to be in position).
My time scale for attacking France will be complicated by the fact that
I'm sure Hohn will do everything he can to make sure that _I_ am the last
person who gets his centres. Fortunately, with three people attacking
him, he hopefully won't have much luck in this. It'll take luck (and
Manus!), but there's at least a chance he'll be gone by next year.
> I can begin to attack Germany before you do, as long as it won't cause a
> dangerous G/F alliance. I don't mind committing to the attack on G before
> you do, that's no problem.
Actually, that may make it easier for ME to attack John. After he turns
to face you, I can use his inevitable request for help to swing a couple
of units north, ostensibly to face you, but which would then fall on him.
That'll give me the advantage of surprise as well. ;)
> If I have to, I'll sit on my hands. But I don't think I'll have to.
>
> I think the real problem will be: what do I build?
> I haven't solved this one yet. :-)
My results are at home - you get one build, no? Or is it two? If only
one, an army in Moscow will be about as non-committal as can be while
still being useful. I haven't looked at your tactics yet, but that seems
practical.
> >I wonder if the number of units Manus sends west could be kept to a minimum
> >by keeping him paranoid about Austria?
>
> Yep, I can do that.
> Let's see, Manus will have five units. I bet he will keep his army
> defending Venice. I can suggest that he keep his other army in Turkey, that
> shouldn't be a problem either. Of his three fleets, I bet I can keep one as
> far east as Ionian. That means he'd just have two fleets against France,
> which I believe he expects to be sufficient. Manus has to plan to be
> fighting Austria when I am alive and strong and ready to do it too,
> otherwise he'd be facing a very powerful opponent alone. So he's apt to be
> highly influenced by my timing decisions. If I want him to keep units ready
> to fight Austria, I think he has to do it.
That makes sense. Given the position you're in, Austria and Italy pretty
much have to take your whims as orders. Nice situation, eh? ;)
> >I don't mind the idea of France
> >falling quickly (I rather like it, I admit ) or even of Manus grabbing a
> >dot or two. I just don't want the problem of taking those dots BACK from
> >him to be any more difficult than it is already likely to be. We wouldn't
> >be able to have Austria wait too long to attack. How sure are you that
> >David will turn his back on you when you want him to? ;)
>
> Pretty sure, King K., pretty sure indeed. Put it this way: I have more at
> stake in that bet than you do!
Well, your well being pretty much IS my well-being so I'd say
it's about even , but I'll take your word as to your influence with
Austria. See the above paragraph...
> The problem isn't going to be Austria waiting too long. The problem is
> going to be reining him in, getting him to wait a season or two!
>
> You want me to have him contact you about this plan? By my estimate, he's
> perfectly ripe for me to sell him on it. Look, it's a great plan for him!
> And what are his alternatives? Get into a protracted ground war against me?
You can have him write to me, but don't say you have done the same. We
still have to keep our alliance secret from everyone for it to work. Just
suggest to him that he ask for my support against Italy. I can nod my
head sagely and give him encouragement. Sound good?
> See, I've just had a really good opening (perhaps you'd noticed). Some
> observers expect me to take advantage of it by striking out all over the
> place and spreading white blocks over the map. That would be foolish. But I
> do intend to press my advantage in other ways... diplomatically. And since
> you and Dave are also in the middle of very good openings, what the hell,
> let's go for it.
I agree. I think the "master plan" has a neat kind of panache here that
will make for a great end game statement. I am quite committed to seeing
it thru, if for no other reason than to see how well we can pull it off!
> When the endgame comes, I am at least *pretty* confident that you'll side
> with me, not with Dave. And I hope you're at least *pretty* confident that
> I'll side with you. I think the on-the-board dynamics will make that the
> likeliest Final Alliance, for the reasons we discussed very early in the
> game....
Yup, and see the above paragraph for my opinion. ;)
Kordially,
King Kal
kignoff, er,
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>My time scale for attacking France will be complicated by the fact that
>I'm sure Hohn will do everything he can to make sure that _I_ am the last
>person who gets his centres. Fortunately, with three people attacking
>him, he hopefully won't have much luck in this. It'll take luck (and
>Manus!), but there's at least a chance he'll be gone by next year.
I understand.
As I'm sure you know from experience on the wrong end of the stick, it is
often pretty near impossible to choose which of one's attackers will get
one's centers. Unless John plays along with Hohn, of course! But he's not
the type.
>> I can begin to attack Germany before you do, as long as it won't cause a
>> dangerous G/F alliance. I don't mind committing to the attack on G before
>> you do, that's no problem.
>
>Actually, that may make it easier for ME to attack John. After he turns
>to face you, I can use his inevitable request for help to swing a couple
>of units north, ostensibly to face you, but which would then fall on him.
Well, yeah, that's what I meant. I meant, it's generally thought to be a
disadvantage to be the first of the team to commit himself to the attack
(for the reason you mention), but in this case I have no problem being
first.
>That'll give me the advantage of surprise as well. ;)
Ah, true.
>My results are at home - you get one build, no? Or is it two? If only
>one, an army in Moscow will be about as non-committal as can be while
>still being useful. I haven't looked at your tactics yet, but that seems
>practical.
Yes, one build. And yes, I plan to build A Mos if nothing else comes up
before the deadline. (which is in about 12 hours.)
>You can have him write to me, but don't say you have done the same. We
>still have to keep our alliance secret from everyone for it to work. Just
>suggest to him that he ask for my support against Italy. I can nod my
>head sagely and give him encouragement. Sound good?
Oh, ok.
(Those are complicated instructions, but I will consult them again
carefully as I compose my message to Austria!)
>I agree. I think the "master plan" has a neat kind of panache here that
>will make for a great end game statement. I am quite committed to seeing
>it thru, if for no other reason than to see how well we can pull it off!
:)
It does have aesthetic appeal.
Ok, now let me get down to specifics.
What if I show my anti-Prussian cards this Fall? Would that be too early,
would it ruin your attack on France? (Part of my question is, what would
John do exactly -- would he cease hostilities with France, or would he want
to grab the French centers to stock up his forces against me?)
Also: what if I send an army into Scandinavia? Think about it. An army
arrives in Stp. (I could build it there, or send it up from Mos, either
way.) Now everyone can see that I'm going to make a move in the north, but
they have to guess that I'm going after Norway. Maybe you order Nth-Nwy, if
you can spare the F Nth, and I bounce you with Swe-Nwy, and I move my army
into Finland... and then either I go F Swe-Bal and Fin-Swe, you and I take
Denmark together, depending on whether you are ready to show *your*
anti-Prussian cards at that moment.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Ok, I've got an update for you now.
My discussion with England has been somewhat complicated because I didn't
want to tip too much, but I would have to say they've been successful.
However, what you are supposed to do is to write to him and ask him for
support against Italy. You are not supposed to say, "So now it's a big
happy plan among the three of us friendly guys."
The precise reasons for doing it this way are so subtle that I do not fully
understand them myself. :)
What Cal wants is some assurance that after Italy goes over and ruins the
French defense, England won't then have to worry about a major Italian
fleets blasting away at the Mid-Atlantic. I *think* the rest of the
subterfuge is that he does not want you to think that he and I have an
especially close relationship, so he doesn't want me to be telling you,
"Hey, England and I just cooked up a great plan...."
Do you see the point? (If it doesn't really make complete sense, then
you're in the same boat I am.)
So anyway, you could write to England and say that you understand that
Italy is about to sail west, and that once he's committed you'd expect to
stab him if you felt confident that England would help you out.
Tsar J
Message from Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
Well, I had thought that Turkey had broadcasted an accusation that I
had negotiated beyond the deadline, so I thought I should mail each player
a denial. Turns out he didn't broadcast it, so the egg is on my face,
but no, it wasn't intended for general broadcast. I'd rather let the
matter die quietly.
Manus
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
Okay, I'll think about this a bit and try and come up with a good
approach. I'm not quite clear on something though. Are you
suppossed to have suggested to me that I get in touch with him,
or is it that you implied that I've been in touch with you about
Italy and you expect me to get in touch with him. i.e., which of
the following base lines should I work from:
I've been talking with you about peace as I want to go for Italy and
1) now I'm talking to England on my own as a potential ally. You and
I have not discussed England.
2) you have suggested that I get in touch with England, but have not
revealed that you have talked to him.
3) you have let me know that you have talked briefly with England and
think he might be receptive and maybe I should try talking to him.
Let me know where to start and I'll send him a note.
-Dave
> Message from [email protected] as Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
>
> Ok, I've got an update for you now.
> My discussion with England has been somewhat complicated because I didn't
> want to tip too much, but I would have to say they've been successful.
>
> However, what you are supposed to do is to write to him and ask him for
> support against Italy. You are not supposed to say, "So now it's a big
> happy plan among the three of us friendly guys."
>
> The precise reasons for doing it this way are so subtle that I do not fully
> understand them myself. :)
>
> What Cal wants is some assurance that after Italy goes over and ruins the
> French defense, England won't then have to worry about a major Italian
> fleets blasting away at the Mid-Atlantic. I *think* the rest of the
> subterfuge is that he does not want you to think that he and I have an
> especially close relationship, so he doesn't want me to be telling you,
> "Hey, England and I just cooked up a great plan...."
>
> Do you see the point? (If it doesn't really make complete sense, then
> you're in the same boat I am.)
>
> So anyway, you could write to England and say that you understand that
> Italy is about to sail west, and that once he's committed you'd expect to
> stab him if you felt confident that England would help you out.
>
> Tsar J
>
>
Message from Russia to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Yeah, good question. Let's see. I guess it's this one:
>2) you have suggested that I get in touch with England, but have not
> revealed that you have talked to him.
Tsar J
Message from Austria to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> Yeah, good question. Let's see. I guess it's this one:
>
> >2) you have suggested that I get in touch with England, but have not
> > revealed that you have talked to him.
>
> Tsar J
>
Okay, I'll keep you posted.
Kaiser D
Message from England to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Italy to England in 'pouchtoo':
>
>Well, I had thought that Turkey had broadcasted an accusation that I
>had negotiated beyond the deadline, so I thought I should mail each player
>a denial. Turns out he didn't broadcast it, so the egg is on my face,
>but no, it wasn't intended for general broadcast. I'd rather let the
>matter die quietly.
Fine by me. ;)
King Kal
Message from England to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
>Message from [email protected] as Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>Ok, now let me get down to specifics.
>
>What if I show my anti-Prussian cards this Fall? Would that be too early,
>would it ruin your attack on France? (Part of my question is, what would
>John do exactly -- would he cease hostilities with France, or would he want
>to grab the French centers to stock up his forces against me?)
It may be too early, but it may not. Again, it depends on how fast France
is going to fall. The simplest thing to do is wait for Spring to play out
and see what position Hohn is in.
We'll have to think this one out carefully because as soon as you move on
Germany, it lessens your diplomatic impact on Austria & Italy. Uncommitted,
you can move against either one. Committed, your leverage lessens.
All in all, I'd say a Fall attack is _probably_ a good idea. We'll wait and
see, ok?
>Also: what if I send an army into Scandinavia? Think about it. An army
>arrives in Stp. (I could build it there, or send it up from Mos, either
>way.) Now everyone can see that I'm going to make a move in the north, but
>they have to guess that I'm going after Norway. Maybe you order Nth-Nwy, if
>you can spare the F Nth, and I bounce you with Swe-Nwy, and I move my army
>into Finland... and then either I go F Swe-Bal and Fin-Swe, you and I take
>Denmark together, depending on whether you are ready to show *your*
>anti-Prussian cards at that moment.
In general, I like the idea of you being in Bal & Swe. It will speed up the
German demise. Tactically, I'm not sure I can use North for that purpose,
at least in the immediate future as it may be need against the fleet Hohn is
likely to build. _That_ state of affairs shouldn't last long though.
Again, let's wait and see how the Spring turns out before we decide on this
one.
I'm certainly enjoying this game much more than the last one. ;)
King Kal
Message from Italy to Austria and Russia in
'pouchtoo':
Far as I know, our plan now is to have you guys head for Germany while I
head toward France. Si?
Please send me some idea of your troop movements so I know how quickly the
dogs will be on Germany. Me I have a long sail in front of me. As for
my build, I'm thinking F Nap, thence to TYS. Venice lays open, but we
can either bounce Tri+Tyr there, leaving me in place to support any A/R
action on Munich, or maybe I could run it to Pie to advance the western
cause as quickly as possible. Your thoughts?
I would like Smyrna (as I believe I have told both of you). Since that
seems like it would equitably distribute the profits, and since I seem
to be the one who needs builds the most at the present, and since I
received no objection from youse to my claim on Smyrna, shall we call it
agreed?
Am just back from a biz trip and am rushed. You can probably tell.
But thought I'd check in and see if you guys have started any planning
for anything.
Manus
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
I would like to propose something to you.
How would you like me to attack an unsupported Greece this turn (Spring)
which would allow you to disband your fleet. I will move out in the Fall
and you rebuild an army.
This seems to be an efficient way to:
(a) mislead our opponents as to our true alliance (especially while
we do a bounce ot Tyr+Tri in Venice, or perhaps a Tyr-Tri and
Tri-Ven? Of course, when I move out in Fall [unless we have a way
you can PUSH me out then to make it look like we ARE at each other's
throats], the jig might be up, but every little advantage is worth it,
no matter how long it lasts, eh?
(b) quickly move your most southern unit to your most northern spot,
and a unit that never would have anything to do for the rest of
the game except for worrying me, Mr. Med, your bestest friend in
the whole world.
What do you say? If you like this, we need to coordinate on my take of
Smyrna, and I don't want either of us to make our holdings (Bul, Con)
attractive to Jamie's eye in the process. (Just in case, you know....)
Manus
Message from Russia to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
>Far as I know, our plan now is to have you guys head for Germany while I
>head toward France. Si?
Seguro.
(As far as I know! I *hope* that's the plan of all of us. I'm replying just
to you, for now, will reply by PRESS TO AI in a few moments.)
>Please send me some idea of your troop movements so I know how quickly the
>dogs will be on Germany. Me I have a long sail in front of me.
Right.
I think both Austria and I should try to stall a moment, so that the timing
is better. What we want, I think, is for Germany to remain engaged with
France until you get there, so Hohn doesn't have a 'change of heart'. But
then we'll jump him, so you'll get (a) a better share of the spoils, and
(b) a better position against England if it comes to that. (But note that I
am still counting on you to help me against Austria if necessary--in a
couple of years, I mean.)
> As for
>my build, I'm thinking F Nap, thence to TYS. Venice lays open, but we
>can either bounce Tri+Tyr there, leaving me in place to support any A/R
>action on Munich, or maybe I could run it to Pie to advance the western
>cause as quickly as possible. Your thoughts?
My thought, frankly, is that you probably ought to leave that army pretty
damned close to Venice, and I'd prefer it if you'd bounce Austria in Ven.
But let's see what he thinks. I'm just not sure how much to trust him.
>I would like Smyrna (as I believe I have told both of you). Since that
>seems like it would equitably distribute the profits, and since I seem
>to be the one who needs builds the most at the present, and since I
>received no objection from youse to my claim on Smyrna, shall we call it
>agreed?
Yes, ok by me, as I'll announce to Austria shortly.
Tsar J
Message from Russia to Austria and Italy in
'pouchtoo':
>Far as I know, our plan now is to have you guys head for Germany while I
>head toward France. Si?
That's the plan. Right Dave? I hope so!
>Please send me some idea of your troop movements so I know how quickly the
>dogs will be on Germany. Me I have a long sail in front of me. As for
>my build, I'm thinking F Nap, thence to TYS. Venice lays open, but we
>can either bounce Tri+Tyr there, leaving me in place to support any A/R
>action on Munich, or maybe I could run it to Pie to advance the western
>cause as quickly as possible. Your thoughts?
Well, I leave the disposition of A Ven to you two.
I think Manus should leave the exact timing of the German attack to me and
Dave.
>I would like Smyrna (as I believe I have told both of you). Since that
>seems like it would equitably distribute the profits, and since I seem
>to be the one who needs builds the most at the present, and since I
>received no objection from youse to my claim on Smyrna, shall we call it
>agreed?
Yes, I think that's best. Ok Dave?
Tsar J
Message from Russia to England in 'pouchtoo':
>It may be too early, but it may not. Again, it depends on how fast France
>is going to fall. The simplest thing to do is wait for Spring to play out
>and see what position Hohn is in.
Yes, that's simple, but I do have to decide what I'm going to do in the Spring.
And where to build.
>In general, I like the idea of you being in Bal & Swe. It will speed up the
>German demise. Tactically, I'm not sure I can use North for that purpose,
>at least in the immediate future as it may be need against the fleet Hohn is
>likely to build. _That_ state of affairs shouldn't last long though.
>Again, let's wait and see how the Spring turns out before we decide on this
>one.
Yeah, but if I'm going to try to occupy Swe and Fin, then I have to start
getting the new army into position. So should I build A Stp and move it to
Fin? Or build in Moscow, in order to temporize?
>I'm certainly enjoying this game much more than the last one. ;)
Me too! Similar reasons!
(Actually, I did enjoy the other one, in a totally different way.)
Tsar J
Message from Italy to Russia in 'pouchtoo':
> I think both Austria and I should try to stall a moment, so that the timing
> is better.
>
Yeah; this was kind of what I was fishing for when I asked for an idea of
your timing. I know you both (especially Dave) have a long way to go to
get out of the Balkans and down the steppes, and with Venice sitting there
in ten feet of water, I would very much like to know how Dave plans to
make the journey.
> What we want, I think, is for Germany to remain engaged with
> France until you get there, so Hohn doesn't have a 'change of heart'.
>
Right. I want all the spoils I can get, and if I can get westward before
Germany is pulled off him, I'll be seen as either the savior who should
be paid, or the valiant (but too late) protector who should get the centers
lest they fall to those who attacked the poor frog.
> I am still counting on you to help me against Austria if necessary--in a
> couple of years, I mean.)
>
Indeed so. In the slow drag of units from Turkey to Germany, your position
won't ever be bad for kicking off something like this. Mine, as you know,
is a bit shaky now, with the boot empty, and may be for a while. We need
to keep Dave honest. As you point out, I need to know EXACTLY what Trieste
is doing now and from now on.
Thanks for granting me Smyrna. I'll decide which unit will move (hoping
for your support from Ank) here after the builds.
Manus
Message from Austria to Russia and Italy in
'pouchtoo':
> >Far as I know, our plan now is to have you guys head for Germany while I
> >head toward France. Si?
>
> That's the plan. Right Dave? I hope so!
>
Ayup.
> >Please send me some idea of your troop movements so I know how quickly the
> >dogs will be on Germany. Me I have a long sail in front of me. As for
> >my build, I'm thinking F Nap, thence to TYS. Venice lays open, but we
> >can either bounce Tri+Tyr there, leaving me in place to support any A/R
> >action on Munich, or maybe I could run it to Pie to advance the western
> >cause as quickly as possible. Your thoughts?
>
> Well, I leave the disposition of A Ven to you two.
> I think Manus should leave the exact timing of the German attack to me and
> Dave.
>
Ayup.
> >I would like Smyrna (as I believe I have told both of you). Since that
> >seems like it would equitably distribute the profits, and since I seem
> >to be the one who needs builds the most at the present, and since I
> >received no objection from youse to my claim on Smyrna, shall we call it
> >agreed?
>
> Yes, I think that's best. Ok Dave?
>
Ayup. (Notice a theme here?)
Kaiser D.
Message from Italy to Austria in 'pouchtoo':
Your well-reasoned response received. Sadly, have no time to write now
but can summarize in one word what I intend to say when I do have time:
"Ayup!"
Manus
Message from Austria to England in 'pouchtoo':
Greetings King Kal,
As I'm sure you can imagine, the notes have been flying fast and furiously
down here in the south (except for Sultan Steve who has been strangely
silent, I wonder why? (<: ).
Anyway, I'm still trying to solve the problem of being the monkey in the
middle, the natural solution to which is of course to get my neighbors
interested in other areas, which of course means Russia in the north and
Italy in the west. I think I've been fairly successful in this and am
now quite certain that Italy will head for France and Russia will join me
in an attack on Germany. While I'm sure you are happy for me, I know that
this will not be the greatest news that you've ever heard. Certainly better
than Russia attacking you, and I'm sure he won't be doing that, but still
there will be some concern on seeing AIR all moving your way.
I really don't want to see this develop into some sort of massive 2 on 3
or even 3 on 3 stalemate. That's always an unsatisfactory ending to a
game. A well fought 2-way, or even a 3-way where the players have brought
themselves to an equilibrium are results I can live with, but I hate large
draws. I'm also not comfortable being in the middle of IR, even if we are
all heading north. I don't feel that I have a really solid alliance with
either of them, and they both stand to get more builds out of this than
I do, and they'll still be in a position to crunch me between them. Given
a choice, Italy is my preferred target of the two. He's easier to attack
and I'm less certain of his intentions, Manus strikes me as the sort who
might just stab me on a whim at any time.
So, why am I telling you all this? Well, I've discussed things with Russia
of course in trying to get him moving away from me, and he's mentioned that
there is some chance of you joining in an attack on Germany, sort of a
feeding frenzy if you will (<:, but that you have some concerns about
doing so while Italy is establishing himself in France and building up a
large fleet force. Personally, I also have some concerns about Russia's
moving into Germany, and where he's going to go afterwards as I'll continue
to be a tempting source of centers. So, what I'd really like to see would
be a scenario along the following lines:
Italy heads for France, which should destroy whatever defensive lines he's
set up.
Austria and Russia make a move on Germany, probably this fall.
England grabs something from France and joins in against Germany. The
timing there is up to you, perhaps after the first year?
Before Italy can shore up his home defenses, Austria turns on him. At that
time, I could also lessen my committment to the German attack, thus slowing
the Russian gains.
You continue your expansion into France and possibly Germany while I take
out Italy and Russia moves into Germany, with both of us tempering our
support so as to keep him from going too quickly.
The builds from Italy will allow me to keep a solid line versus Russia,
and you will of course have control of the northern seas. France and
Germany will still be around for a while, but as small beleagured powers,
and I think that AE coordination could easily put us into a position where
we could move for a two way ending. A coordinated attack on Russia would
leave three small powers stuck between the two of us, something we ought to
able to do quite well from.
Well, that's certainly a lot out of the blue! To put it in a nutshell,
I'd like to be able to point Russia towards Germany without createing a
West vs East stalemate that we'll never get out of. My real aim is to
take out Italy (thus kind of nuking the East concept (<:) and I want to
be sure that you and I are working together as you would be the instrumental
player in forming the West if you saw the need, and as I would like a long
term ally to work with, and I think we'd make a good pair for it. I also
think we can hide our degree of cooperation well as we are so far apart
and an eventual joint move by us should have a good chance of surprising
Russia.
If you're still awake, tell me what you think of all this!
Best regards,
Kaiser Dave
Message from Austria to Italy in 'pouchtoo':
> I would like to propose something to you.
>
> How would you like me to attack an unsupported Greece this turn (Spring)
> which would allow you to disband your fleet. I will move out in the Fall
> and you rebuild an army.
>
Nah (<:.
> This seems to be an efficient way to:
> (a) mislead our opponents as to our true alliance (especially while
> we do a bounce ot Tyr+Tri in Venice, or perhaps a Tyr-Tri and
> Tri-Ven? Of course, when I move out in Fall [unless we have a way
> you can PUSH me out then to make it look like we ARE at each other's
> throats], the jig might be up, but every little advantage is worth it,
> no matter how long it lasts, eh?
The problem is I don't think we'll get even a short term advantage out of
it. If you were serious about attacking me you'd build an army in Ven.
If you build an army in Ven, I'd think you were serious about attacking me (<:.
In addition, it slows the movement of your fleets to the west. They'd be
a lot better heading there at full speed if you want to get a build there
soon. (Nap - Tys, Ion - Tun; Tys - Gol, Tun - Wes) sets you up well to get
another build in two years and with the gain of Smyrna you'll have a build
this year. If you want a little subterfuge, you could make the above moves
and Aeg - Ion, then in the fall we could bounce in Ven (pie won't be doing
much probably, if it can take Mar, then we do that) and I could move Gre to
Ion, which of course you would leave there to block me. I'm not sure there
is much to be gained from this though, I think it may just be time to hit
them hard and fast.
> (b) quickly move your most southern unit to your most northern spot,
> and a unit that never would have anything to do for the rest of
> the game except for worrying me, Mr. Med, your bestest friend in
> the whole world.
>
To tell the truth, I don't really have a use for another army at this time.
That's not to say that I have any use for the fleet, but I dislike totally
destroying my navy. I'm still between you and Russia and I'd hate to take
myself out of the play by throwing away my bargaining power. I can't launch
an attack on either of you with my fleet, but I can make a difference in
the battle between you if it comes to that. It makes it a little more tempting
for both of you to stay friendly with me. And I'd hate to present you with
the temptation of actually staying in Greece!
I hope that's not a problem, but I'd rather just go forward with you taking
Smyrna and heading for France while I go for Germany and keep a nice solid
line between you and Jamie's ambitions.
Regards,
Kaiser D
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