| Press for Fall of 1908 in ghodstoo |
Movement
Private message from Master to Turkey:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Jim,
>
> Goddamnit, I hate it when things get all fucked up like this.
Yes, there is NO other way to say it, I have to agree. I saw all
of the messages and so (despite SOME judge difficulties) I didn't
feel that "pushing" people to get orders in was out of line on my
part. I'm assuming you're just venting (which is QUITE alright)
and not faulting me for not giving you enough time.
>
> Cal didn't respond to my diplomacy. Thus, I was operating under the
> assumption that he was doing what he said he'd do.
>
Yes, I understand. I saw your message to him.
> Then, he doesn't do what I proposed, he doesn't do what he said he'd
> do, but he does some third thing altogether?? I mean, it's not like
> he was hostile to me, so he wasn't stabbing. That is just bad, bad
> miscommunication.
>
It sure looks like it.
> And what's up with Jamie?
>
Are you referring to his trip out of town, or his moves to North Sea
and Baltic ;-) You are aware he won't be back at his computer until
Monday. I am inclined to ask for a delay (to Wednesday? Tuesday?),
but Jamie was somewhat explicit to me about wanting to avoid a delay
if possible. What do you think?
> I am really thinking that France will win now, or that at best we can
> only force a draw situation.
>
> Hohn
>
I understand your concern and trust that you understand my message as one
written to an expert Diplomacy player with whom I need not pretend does
not understand "what's up". We shall see. Diplomacy is a strange game.
Jim
Private message from Master to Turkey:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to Austria, England, France,
> Germany and Turkey in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Is anyone else interested in taking this game to hand-adjudication?
>
If that REALLY is the wish of all the players I am willing to do it.
I would rather not do so, so it would take a unanimous vote which
could not even take place until Monday since Jamie is away.
This is supposed to be a "test of Judge Diplomacy" with expert
players after all ;-) I view the technology as part of the test.
> With all due respect to Dave Kleiman who has a quite thankless job, it's
> obvious that the "system" is not up to coping with the demands of a game
> of Diplomacy. I sent in orders FOUR times last turn before they got
> recognized (admittedly, one set had an error because the Judge doesn't
> know the proper abbreviations for Tyrolia (tyo) or Tyrrhenian (tyr), but
> even then it sent me back an error flag for the province I spelled out
> in full...). Also, the Judge managed to lose a vital letter which
> accounted for the total lack of coordination between Hohn and I this
> season past.
I will repeat that I am ***MORE THAN WILLING*** to help anyone make sure
that the orders they wish to send are being registered properly to the
Judge. Since Cal mentioned it, he can verify that I was E-Mailing him
about the error flag directly to see if I could help.
As far as losing vital correspondence, for myself, what I do is CC
a message to the Judge to myself and then if I don't get back the
verification in short order, I can send it directly. As I think you
all know, Edi has been cautious and sending many messages directly
to correspondents since early in the game. Again, if you do that,
please just CC me ([email protected]) as well.
I also would like to go on record as saying that even if it is
past the deadline, if you sent a message BEFORE the deadline
that the Judge didn't process, forwarding it to the desired
parties by direct E-Mail is acceptable and does not constitute
"negotiating after the deadline". The time stamp on the original
E-Mail (that you will send to me as a CC, of course) will verify
that to me. I trust that is acceptable to all of you.
>
> I'd like to have this game adjudicated the "old-fashioned" way before
> the quality of play deteriorates any further.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Cal
> (Hoping this note makes it out)
>
Those are my thoughts. Hearing more of yours would be OK, too.
Jim
Private message from France to Master:
I oppose hand adjudication. I agree that using the technology is part of
the demo aspect of this game. I've been burned by judge failures, but I
can take care of that with a little effort - sending directly to email
addresses, as you suggested.
John
Private message from Germany to Master:
>Is anyone else interested in taking this game to hand-adjudication?
Not I, I'm afraid. While I sympathize with Cal's problems with the judge
last turn (I suffered a bit of the same myself), I still think that the
ease of communication and adjudication afforded by email and judge play far
outweighs the occassional problem with the judge.
-Pitt
Private message from Master to France:
I believe in making such "votes" secret, so if Cal goes on to demand
a formal vote, the proposal will be rejected and I will announce
neither vote totals nor identities of voters, just that the proposal
failed. Ifeel that to do otherwise injects the vote into the game.
Jim
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
I think this is getting ludicrous...
Cal
Subject:
Returned mail: Remote protocol error
Date:
Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:02:26 -0400
From:
Mail Delivery Subsystem
To:
The original message was received at Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:34:39 -0400
from eonnet25.idirect.com [207.136.86.25]
----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
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----- Transcript of session follows -----
554 ... Remote protocol error
----- Original message follows -----
Subject:
Re: Diplomacy notice: ghodstoo
Date:
Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:36:56 -0400
From:
Cal White
Organization:
Northern Flame Internet Design
To:
USIN Diplomacy Judge
References:
1
signon ighodstoo <>
press to aefgt
> Message from [email protected] as Master to Austria, England, France,
> Germany, Italy and Turkey in 'ghodstoo':
> If that REALLY is the wish of all the players I am willing to do it.
> I would rather not do so, so it would take a unanimous vote which
> could not even take place until Monday since Jamie is away.
> This is supposed to be a "test of Judge Diplomacy" with expert
> players after all ;-) I view the technology as part of the test.
I'd say the results are in... :)
> I will repeat that I am ***MORE THAN WILLING*** to help anyone make sure
> that the orders they wish to send are being registered properly to the
> Judge. Since Cal mentioned it, he can verify that I was E-Mailing him
> about the error flag directly to see if I could help.
Absolutely. But the "error flag" you asked me about was for an order
that was in correctly! I got the flag from the Judge regarding my order
of f tun s f ion-tyn (it doesn't like "tyn"). You mentioned that you
had seen a flag about the move to tyrolia (it doesn't like tyo either,
but I didn't use that).
And I really hope, Jim, that you don't take anything I've said as
criticism of you or your efforts. To me, you've gotten A+ as GM of this
game.
> As far as losing vital correspondence, for myself, what I do is CC
> a message to the Judge to myself and then if I don't get back the
> verification in short order, I can send it directly. As I think you
> all know, Edi has been cautious and sending many messages directly
> to correspondents since early in the game. Again, if you do that,
> please just CC me ([email protected]) as well.
That's what I shall do in the future if we continue using the Judge.
> I also would like to go on record as saying that even if it is
> past the deadline, if you sent a message BEFORE the deadline
> that the Judge didn't process, forwarding it to the desired
> parties by direct E-Mail is acceptable and does not constitute
> "negotiating after the deadline". The time stamp on the original
> E-Mail (that you will send to me as a CC, of course) will verify
> that to me. I trust that is acceptable to all of you.
Don't see how this would help unless it was ORDERS you were talking
about.
> > I'd like to have this game adjudicated the "old-fashioned" way before
> > the quality of play deteriorates any further.
> Those are my thoughts. Hearing more of yours would be OK, too.
> Jim
Private message from Master to Turkey:
> And I really hope, Jim, that you don't take anything I've said as
> criticism of you or your efforts. To me, you've gotten A+ as GM of this
> game.
Oh, not at all. I just want to point out (again) that I am trying to
be of service here.
>
> > As far as losing vital correspondence, for myself, what I do is CC
> > a message to the Judge to myself and then if I don't get back the
> > verification in short order, I can send it directly. As I think you
> > all know, Edi has been cautious and sending many messages directly
> > to correspondents since early in the game. Again, if you do that,
> > please just CC me ([email protected]) as well.
>
> That's what I shall do in the future if we continue using the Judge.
>
Thanks. Are you requesting that I officially poll the players on
this question? I have not yet done so and obviously I cannot collect
Jamie's input until he returns, so I think everyone should assume
the next season for sure will be conducted as normal, although we
hope normal does not include Judge problems.
> > I also would like to go on record as saying that even if it is
> > past the deadline, if you sent a message BEFORE the deadline
> > that the Judge didn't process, forwarding it to the desired
> > parties by direct E-Mail is acceptable and does not constitute
> > "negotiating after the deadline". The time stamp on the original
> > E-Mail (that you will send to me as a CC, of course) will verify
> > that to me. I trust that is acceptable to all of you.
>
> Don't see how this would help unless it was ORDERS you were talking
> about.
No, because, if you don't submit your orders, the Judge will still
accept changes from other powers as well. Do I have to spell it out
in complete detail? As an abbreviated further explanation, you could
forward your letter on, written before the deadline, but not delivered,
and the power you send the letter to could read it and decide to change
their orders and do so. They would NOT have the luxury of continuing
the negotiation. Still, my perception was that addressed at least
part of your problem.
>
> > > I'd like to have this game adjudicated the "old-fashioned" way before
> > > the quality of play deteriorates any further.
>
> > Those are my thoughts. Hearing more of yours would be OK, too.
>
> > Jim
>
The door is always open,
Jim
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Master to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Cal,
> You are moving to Tyrolia, Rome, and Trieste; and supporting the
> Turkish fleet from Ionian to Tyr? That's what the Judge says,
> but it also has you with an error flag. Could you clear it please,
> so we can continue? Thanks!
>
> Jim
I thought I already did this by spelling Tyrrhenian out completely. I
deleted the reply from the Judge, but I know it had all four units
ordered correctly. I'll try again, but this program is f&^%ed.
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
Just checked. Yes, I DID have my orders in correctly and the Judge
confirmed it.
Cal
btw: what does that stupid machine consider the OFFICIAL
abbreviations for tyo & tyn?
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
Okay, I've had a chance to look over the tactics. Here's the plan:
Italy
f adr-tri
a ven-tyo
f tyn-rom
f tun s f ion-tyn
Turkey
a gal-bud
a bud s a gal-vie
a bul-ser
f alb s f adr-tri
f lyo-pie
f ion-tyn
Explanations:
f lyo-pie & a ven-tri: These moves will keep Pie open for this turn and
guarantee the taking of Trieste;
f ion-tyn & f tyn-rom: This is just to keep ME feeling comfortable with
the positioning of our units. I don't want to get so far away from my
home centres that you get tempted to go for it all. You HAVE said this
wouldn't be a problem for you, right? Also, I see us as only trying to
go so far as we need to to stalemate the Med. That means naf, wes &
lyo. Unless your f lyo-pie actually succeeds, we'll be guaranteed of
picking up wes in the Fall.
Comments?
Cal
(I've sent these orders in already, but can change them if you have a
better idea)
Private message from France to England:
What now? You made good headway, and I have mounted a threat Italy can't
ignore. But I'm worried about T breaking through. What's your
assessment?
Private message from Master to Italy:
>
> Message from [email protected] as Italy to Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Just checked. Yes, I DID have my orders in correctly and the Judge
> confirmed it.
>
> Cal
> btw: what does that stupid machine consider the OFFICIAL
> abbreviations for tyo & tyn?
>
Beats the hell out of me, I never managed to figure it out.
You would think that "get syntax" (for order writing) would tell you
what you wanted to know, but it doesn't. I am sympathetic with you.
I had a devil of a time in the first ghods game getting orders in
correctly too. As I said, if you're having problems, though, I'd
be happy to work with you on it. On this, you'll just have to spell
them out, I guess. You could post the question on r.g.d and I'm
sure there would be answers posted in return.
Jim
Private message from Italy to Master:
> Beats the hell out of me, I never managed to figure it out.
> You would think that "get syntax" (for order writing) would tell you
> what you wanted to know, but it doesn't. I am sympathetic with you.
> I had a devil of a time in the first ghods game getting orders in
> correctly too. As I said, if you're having problems, though, I'd
> be happy to work with you on it. On this, you'll just have to spell
> them out, I guess. You could post the question on r.g.d and I'm
> sure there would be answers posted in return.
My ISP, which has been on the whole an excellent service, has been
giving me some real headaches lately. I THINK that the recent problems
I've been blaming on the judge were actually a result of my mail server
not SENDING the messages out in the first place. Also, I've been unable
to get back into r.g.d. for a couple of weeks now. That's ticking me
off double because I've been wanting to advertise the new updates to the
CDO Home Page. Sigh.
Ta for your time and ttyl
Cal
Private message from Italy to Master:
Jim: I've been having mail server problems. If I don't have my orders
in tomorrow night, can you extend the deadline?
A day or two should do it. Wait until then though. Thanx.
Cal
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
Is anyone else interested in taking this game to hand-adjudication?
With all due respect to Dave Kleiman who has a quite thankless job, it's
obvious that the "system" is not up to coping with the demands of a game
of Diplomacy. I sent in orders FOUR times last turn before they got
recognized (admittedly, one set had an error because the Judge doesn't
know the proper abbreviations for Tyrolia (tyo) or Tyrrhenian (tyr), but
even then it sent me back an error flag for the province I spelled out
in full...). Also, the Judge managed to lose a vital letter which
accounted for the total lack of coordination between Hohn and I this
season past.
I'd like to have this game adjudicated the "old-fashioned" way before
the quality of play deteriorates any further.
Thoughts?
Cal
(Hoping this note makes it out)
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
> Dude, we are going to have to start communicating better, I think.
> The below was the last I heard from you. Thus, since I hadn't
> received confirmation that you wanted to attack Trieste (indeed, since
> I hadn't received confirmation that you had received my letter at
> all), I didn't support the move. I still thought you were going to
> support VEN to hold. We could have gotten TRI, had we coordinated.
>
> Also, what was up with the fleet moves? According to our original
> spate of messages, I thought we were going TYS-WES? I'm not sure what
> good TYS-ROM did.
I am getting really fed up with the Judge program. I sent you a really
long detailed letter several days ago and it obviously got lost. I sent
in orders four f&^%ing times for this game before it would finally
recognize them. I wondered why you hadn't responded but I thought that
(at least) you'd have a chance to see my letter before the turn
processed.
Anyway, here's a copy of the letter I sent you. It should explain my
moves:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I've had a chance to look over the tactics. Here's the plan:
Italy
f adr-tri
a ven-tyo
f tyn-rom
f tun s f ion-tyn
Turkey
a gal-bud
a bud s a gal-vie
a bul-ser
f alb s f adr-tri
f lyo-pie
f ion-tyn
Explanations:
f lyo-pie & a ven-tri: These moves will keep Pie open for this turn and
guarantee the taking of Trieste;
f ion-tyn & f tyn-rom: This is just to keep ME feeling comfortable with
the positioning of our units. I don't want to get so far away from my
home centres that you get tempted to go for it all. You HAVE said this
wouldn't be a problem for you, right? Also, I see us as only trying to
go so far as we need to to stalemate the Med. That means naf, wes &
lyo. Unless your f lyo-pie actually succeeds, we'll be guaranteed of
picking up wes in the Fall.
Comments?
Cal
(I've sent these orders in already, but can change them if you have a
better idea)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll get back to you (via regular e-mail addresses from now on) when I
can look over the current situation.
Cal
Private message from England to Master:
Jim,
Here's what I've got for the phased retreat (thought I'd try it out so as
not to have to do it in a rush later).
E: phase summer 1908 retreat
E: if not german den then kie - den
E: else
E: if not (german berlin or turkish berlin) then kie - ber
E: else
E: if not french holland then kie - hol
E: else
E: if not french hel then kie - hol
E: else
E: f kie d
E: endif
e: set wait
What I want to do, and what I think this does, is as follows.
If my F Kie is dislodged, I prefer retreats in this order: to Den, to Ber,
to Hol, to Hel. Or disband if I have no retreat.
It looks right. One thing I'm not sure of: if I have no retreat, this
phased order *might* cause an error, and I might get an ERROR flag.
Probably not. If I do, you know, you can clear it for me, just by signing
on as England.
Anyway, in the unlikely event that I do have to retreat when I'm away, I'd
appreciate it if you'd check to see that it's doing what I want. Will you
do that? If not, I will have to ask for a postponement if the Spring move
hasn't processed before Ieave.
-Jamie
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Message from [email protected] as Master to Austria, England, France,
> Germany, Italy and Turkey in 'ghodstoo':
> Then, I believe, we will run into the short vacation that Cal has
> previously announced (am I remembering that right?).
Not til September 1 (roughly).
Cal
Private message from Turkey to Master:
Jim,
Hate to ask, but is there any way I can have a two day extension until
Friday? It's been hectic at work, it's my birthday on Thursday, I
have relatives and friends in from out of town, and I haven't had a
chance to conduct much diplomacy yet. Please let me know.
Thanks,
Hohn
Private message from England to Master:
I'll be away next week, I'm afraid, from Mon 28 July to Sat 2 August.
I will see what I can do to avoid having a postponement, but my presence in
the game is actually increasing! Let's see. Well, yes, there's a fairly
good chance that I can get in my F1908 movement orders before I go;
supposing no retreats for me, that would mean at worst a delay of the
adjustment phase for a day or two. And even for that I could probably send
in a phased order.
-Jamie
Private message from Master to Italy:
Your only successful order currently entered is F Adr-Tri, thus,
per your instructions, I am extending the deadline.
Jim
Private message from Master to Turkey:
Hello, it's your friendly deadline extending GM again. I will be
away at a conference Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. With Jamie not
coming back until Monday, I was a little uncomfortable with what
would happen Monday should something requiring my attention happen.
In the interim, another player has asked me for a one day extension,
which I will grant. Thus, the deadline will be Tuesday. Then when
I'm back on Wednesday I can deal with whatever I find when I return.
I hope that is acceptable to everyone.
Your patient GM,
Jim
Private message from Germany to Turkey:
Here's my first pass at a set of orders for next turn. Please let me know
what you think.
nor-stp/nc
nwg-nor
den-swe
ber-mun
sil s ber-mun
boh s ber-mun
mos s nor=stp/nc
lvn s nor-stp/nc
-Pitt
Private message from Master to France:
> Message from [email protected] as France to Master, England and Austria in
> 'ghodstoo':
>
> power went down in my office, so it's not easy for me to
> amend my orders. I hope you are reading this Jim. I
> need an extension till noon tomorrow.\
>
> John
>
I'll make it until Midnight. Sorry, I've been away and am swamped.
Jim
Private message from Master to Turkey:
Due to a power outage problem for one of our players (but NOT the one
who didn't have preliminary orders in), I am extending the deadline
until Midnight tonight, just to let people know that negotiations
during the day today are OK,
Jim
Private message from France to Austria:
I should have known I could count on someone to be late. Now I have a
chance to think this over with the map in front of me.
Edi, it seems to me that mun-boh is futile. Vienna is bound to get
crunched, so your support for that move does nothing. I think I can find a
more productive use for mun, but I still will give you full support for
tri-ven.
GKJ, I think we are on track. You have lots of options for f nth, which I
leave to your discretion. I'll help you with f bal, as I said.
Best of luck, and thanks to Pitt.
Private message from France to England:
I don't think I will get the extension. I've changed the orders to
hel s bal - den. Best of luck.
Private message from France to Austria:
power went down in my office, so it's not easy for me to
amend my orders. I hope you are reading this Jim. I
need an extension till noon tomorrow.\
John
Private message from England to France:
Ok, can you support my F Bal to Denmark with your F Hel?
I'll order Nth-Edi and Bal-Den if you are willing to order Hel S Bal-Den.
RSVP, I'll check one last time before deadline.
GKJ
Private message from England to Austria:
I rescind any petition for help from A Mun; let it be at the Archduke's
disposal. Lord knows his straits are direr.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from France to England:
I am willing to go all out to help you both. However, you are placing
conflicting demands on Munich. Austria wants mun-boh, England wants
mun-sil. I'd like to see vie-boh.
Can we work this out? I will go away for a while, but I'll check in before
the deadline.
Right now, my orders are rather conservative.
John, France
Hohn, you misunderstood the comment. France asked if I had any suggestions
for him for the next season and I replied ....a general wretch in the
direction of...
Have no bitterment at all. Hell its been a fun and intense game and I like
that. Of course I would like it a little more at 3 centers and a bit more at
5 centers and what not.
There is no winning hand at this point in the game until such time as you
secure one German center or France an Italian/tunis one. Then there is a
winning hand. personally it looks closer to a potential Turkish victory than
a French one mainly because of the Italian exposure.
>
>Message from [email protected] as Turkey to Austria, England, France,
>Germany, Italy, Russia and Master in 'ghodstoo':
>
>> Message from [email protected] as Austria to all but France in 'ghodstoo':
>> How about a strong wretch in the general direction of Rome and Ankara for a
>> dispicable performance.
>
>I sense...bitterness.
>
>Edi, feel free to tell me "I told you so" if John wins. If he
>doesn't, I'll reserve my right to say the same to you, 'kay?
>
>Sheesh.
>
>Hohn
>
Edi Birsan
Midnight Games/Legends and Iron and Steam
Edi @mgames.com
Phone: 541-772-7872 (9am-4pm) Oregon
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to all but France in 'ghodstoo':
>
> How about a strong wretch in the general direction of Rome and Ankara for a
> dispicable performance.
Despicable? Hmmm, I tot I taw a puddytat! :)
Cal the Despicable
Private message from England to France:
Well, still nothing from Pitt.
Hohn misunderstood what I asked him, and has apparently been assuming that
I am now just going to grab what I can from Germany. (I was trying to ask
him to be the go-between, to suggest a move for me and G in PRESS TO EG.)
Hohn hasn't heard from Pitt either, he says, so there's no doubt that he'll
be taking Stp himself (earlier I thought there was some chance he'd try to
help Germany back in).
I've realized that I made a little error in that last press to you. I
forgot that you still own Nwy, so that Nwy-Swe, Nwg-Nwy is a stupid move
for Germany. By the same token, there is not much point in your ordering
Stp-Nwy.
Now, if it's really true that Turkey and Germany are not communicating,
then the situation is somewhat different, in that your centers become a lot
safer. I bet Turkey goes for the elimination of Austria.
What do you think about Kie S Bal-Ber?? With Mun-Sil? Only Den-Kie could
prevent success. And would you be willing to go all out and also order Hel
S Nth-Den? We'd have a damned good chance of leaving Pitt with only Edi,
Nwy, Swe; I could build in London, and maybe you'd let the dislodged F Stp
go and build something more useful.
You should tell me what you want me to do, in any case, I'll be standing
by. I'm willing to just do Nth-Edi, or Nth S Bal-Den, or any of the various
reasonable tries.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Turkey:
Hohn,
Actually, you misunderstood what I was saying. I was asking you to help me
coordinate with Germany, not to help me figure out how to destroy him! But,
since he isn't saying a word, I guess I'm pretty much forced. I guess I'll
just take Denmark, since I feel I have to have something to compensate for
Kiel. It leaves my fleets hideously out of position, but it's the only sure
thing (assuming no Kie S Den! wouldn't that be a surprise).
It's sort of sounding to me like you are about to eliminate Austria. See, I
told ya you could do it. Timing's right, too, with Italy stuck for a move
making sure France doesn't snatch Venice.
As to his Archdukeness,
>I know; but I just feel that little jibes like that are pretty petty
>and pointless, especially when uncoupled with any legitimate
>diplomatic purposes, as that last message appeared to be. Especially
>from Edi, with whom I've played in many excellent games.
Well, but you realize that that 'little jibe' was not supposed to be a
public one at all, right? He was just venting to France a little. Or maybe
trying to manipulate France.
Oh well.
Listen, if I hear from Pitt before this evening, I still expect to
cooperate. If not, I would *still* be interested in cooperating with him in
the future. And if I get a little bit lucky, the time may come soon when
one of us could support the other into Norway....
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Turkey to England:
Jamie,
> Since you're there, how about making a suggestion for moves in my
> neighborhood? Pitt isn't talking again, and I do not particularly want to
> be forced to take Denmark to hold at two units. If you could send press to
> ge with a suggestion, that might oil the wheels.
I say go for the homeland; NTH-EDI. As for BAL, hmm. Maybe go for
BER, with France's help? I think it might actually succeed.
As for Pitt, I too have heard nothing from him lately. It is a cause
of some major concern.
> Try to ignore Edi, who is now feeling pretty redfaced, I suspect.
I know; but I just feel that little jibes like that are pretty petty
and pointless, especially when uncoupled with any legitimate
diplomatic purposes, as that last message appeared to be. Especially
from Edi, with whom I've played in many excellent games.
Good luck!
Hohn
Private message from England to Turkey:
Hohn,
Since you're there, how about making a suggestion for moves in my
neighborhood? Pitt isn't talking again, and I do not particularly want to
be forced to take Denmark to hold at two units. If you could send press to
ge with a suggestion, that might oil the wheels.
Try to ignore Edi, who is now feeling pretty redfaced, I suspect.
Gentle Witch Jamie
Private message from Turkey to Master:
> Message from [email protected] as Austria to all but France in 'ghodstoo':
> How about a strong wretch in the general direction of Rome and Ankara for a
> dispicable performance.
I sense...bitterness.
Edi, feel free to tell me "I told you so" if John wins. If he
doesn't, I'll reserve my right to say the same to you, 'kay?
Sheesh.
Hohn
>>They listen to mail that is sent to them at [email protected]
Except it is now [email protected]
>Is the source code of the 'Judge' available?
Yes, but not very useful unless you feel like spending many hours.
The PRESS file is much, much more useful; admittedly imperfect, but I have
found in the many Newbie games I have mastered that people pick up the
basics quite easily from that (and some other) Judge files.
(To get the PRESS file, send the Judge GET PRESS [no signon necessary]. GET
SYNTAX gets you, oddly enough, the SYNTAX file, which may also be of some
interest.)
With the great advantage of hindsight, I now think this game might well
have incorporated some of the usual introductory features of regular Newbie
games. I think it didn't because (1) Jim is not highly experienced with the
Judge himself, and (2) everyone kind of forgot that all these ghods have
also feet of clay. (I don't intend this to be criticism of Jim's modus
operandi.)
>Is anyone bothering to make updates and expansions?
Yes: a team of programmers is constantly working on such things.
>Is the person in charge/owns or whatever the source code even listening to
>anyone else but their own echoes?
Yes. (I guess Ken Lowe owns it, but considers it public domain, and no
longer works on it.)
>Can some one grab him by the head and smack him a few times and have him make
>things a little more user friendly?
I'm sure your input would be welcome, though not necessarily heeded.
>Probably none of the above, because the software is freeware and ultimatly the
>egocentric nature of that can not rise to the demands of the users. This is
>one reason that paying for a game and having service oriented companies is
>really the way to go.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Chairman (and Gentle King) Jamie
>Is the source code of the 'Judge' available?
Yes. Couldn't tell you exactly where, but the major ftp sites have
it. Follow the Pouch links.
>Is anyone bothering to make updates and expansions?
Actually a number of people write updates fairly often. You can
contact them at the judge-maint mailing list.
>Is the person in charge/owns or whatever the source code even listening to
anyone else but their own echoes?
Well, I cannot comment about any echoes. The judge programmers get a
lot of requests/demands and few volunteers to actually write code.
>Can some one grab him by the head and smack him a few times and have him make
things a little more user friendly?
The help files are worth reading. They explain the press options
fully. Of course, that's not really your complaint. Your complaint
is that the commands are counter-intuitive. And, though I've never
thought about using '-' as 'to' in press, I have to concede your point.
But in the eight years I've been using the Judge I've never seen
this happen before.
>Probably none of the above, because the software is freeware and ultimatly the
egocentric nature of that can not rise to the demands of the users. This is
one reason that paying for a game and having service oriented companies is
really the way to go.
Well, I, for one, don't really want to pay to play. Though I concede
more programming would get done if the program were done commercially,
the task in question would appear to be sufficiently simple that
shareware should suffice. It does pretty well, in my opinion.
Rick Desper
Judge Apologist
>Is the source code of the 'Judge' available?
Yes, but not very useful unless you feel like spending many hours.
The PRESS file is much, much more useful; admittedly imperfect, but I have
found in the many Newbie games I have mastered that people pick up the
basics quite easily from that (and some other) Judge files.
(To get the PRESS file, send the Judge GET PRESS [no signon necessary]. GET
SYNTAX gets you, oddly enough, the SYNTAX file, which may also be of some
interest.)
With the great advantage of hindsight, I now think this game might well
have incorporated some of the usual introductory features of regular Newbie
games. I think it didn't because (1) Jim is not highly experienced with the
Judge himself, and (2) everyone kind of forgot that all these ghods have
also feet of clay. (I don't intend this to be criticism of Jim's modus
operandi.)
>Is anyone bothering to make updates and expansions?
Yes: a team of programmers is constantly working on such things.
>Is the person in charge/owns or whatever the source code even listening to
>anyone else but their own echoes?
Yes. (I guess Ken Lowe owns it, but considers it public domain, and no
longer works on it.)
>Can some one grab him by the head and smack him a few times and have him make
>things a little more user friendly?
I'm sure your input would be welcome, though not necessarily heeded.
>Probably none of the above, because the software is freeware and ultimatly the
>egocentric nature of that can not rise to the demands of the users. This is
>one reason that paying for a game and having service oriented companies is
>really the way to go.
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Chairman (and Gentle King) Jamie
Private message from England to France:
>A quick question: how do you explain F Bal to Pitt and Hohn? Seems
>anti-G to me.
I just admitted it was anti-German, and said I did it because Pitt never
wrote to me last year.
>I will lose StP, so how about if I order stp-nwy? If he moves, I take
>nwy, if he doesn't I cut any supports he might give.
Well, the F Nwy isn't going to give any useful supports. He certainly isn't
going to have Nwy S Nwg-Nth, since that would force me to retreat into Edi.
And it wouldn't make sense for him to support his A Den into Sweden.
I guess the question is this. Suppose he does Nwy-Nth, Nwg-Nwy (or Nwy-Swe,
Nwg-Nwy). Would we rather have him finish in Nwy, or in Nwg? I'm not sure.
If my F Nth is going to stay there, I would much rather see that German
fleet in Nwy than in Nwg, since it would mean I could take Edi. On the
other hand, F Nwy F Swe might be better for a last stand defense than F Nwg
F Swe. Then again, with Nwy vacant Hohn might be tempted to move in....
I think it's a small matter.
>All this hinges on whether Germany expects your help or your enmity.
>If he thinks you are his ally, you could take edi, or support stp-nwy,
>for instance. I'll stand by until you hear from the other side.
Quite right.
Unfortunately, he hasn't said a thing to me since the last move, and in
fact nothing much since the move before that. So I'm making provisional
plans on the assumption that he'll be hostile to me.
Edi Birsan has just sent a very cryptic note to all players (and observers)
but you. I'll fill you in if I ever figure out what he means.
Oh, never mind, it was an error. No doubt he will now send you that
message, originally intended for just you, but sent instead to everyone but
you.
Gentle King Jamie
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as England in 'ghodstoo':
>
> (To get the PRESS file, send the Judge GET PRESS [no signon necessary]. GET
> SYNTAX gets you, oddly enough, the SYNTAX file, which may also be of some
> interest.)
Unfortunately, the SYNTAX file is nowhere near as useful as it should be.
In particular, it does not explain abbreviations or give enough examples
of how orders like convoys and supports of foreign powers work. I
probably should rewrite them myself, and perhaps I shall some day.
>
> With the great advantage of hindsight, I now think this game might well
> have incorporated some of the usual introductory features of regular Newbie
> games. I think it didn't because (1) Jim is not highly experienced with the
> Judge himself, and (2) everyone kind of forgot that all these ghods have
> also feet of clay. (I don't intend this to be criticism of Jim's modus
> operandi.)
>
I know, but I thought I would comment on it. I admitted (1) up front
and have ALWAYS been highly cognizant of (2). What I most would like to
have is the Judge to send me all ORDER submissions in addition to all
PRESS. I really do read all the press (though not always when it is
received) and I follow up on things as soon as I can. Although I
repeatedly tell people to consult me when they are having problems
with order submissions, the practical fact is they don't. They get
frustrated just like I did when I played in the first ghods game.
What were some of the usual introductory features of regular Newbie
games? I thought I was following them: reading all press as it goes
and trying to troubleshoot problems, start and feed broadcast discussions
on how the Judge works (like this one), and repeatedly mention that I'm
available to help with problems (you guys actually do ask me for things
sometimes, but not as much as you could).
>
> Chairman (and Gentle King) Jamie
>
>
Jim Burgess, your faithful GM
My apologies to the crew for the last message that went out to everyone but
France.
Seems I foolishly tried to once again use the Judge for communication and I
wrote:
Press -F
which seems to mean everyone but France.
Odd when I write Bur-Mun it does not mean Burgundy goes to every place except
Munich,
but hey who am I to question the logic of a programer. You got to love those
guys...who else would have thought of such a weird multiple and opposite uses
of a dash.
Is the source code of the 'Judge' available?
Is anyone bothering to make updates and expansions?
Is the person in charge/owns or whatever the source code even listening to
anyone else but their own echoes?
Can some one grab him by the head and smack him a few times and have him make
things a little more user friendly?
Probably none of the above, because the software is freeware and ultimatly the
egocentric nature of that can not rise to the demands of the users. This is
one reason that paying for a game and having service oriented companies is
really the way to go.
Private message from Austria to France:
How about a strong wretch in the general direction of Rome and Ankara for a
dispicable performance.
Private message from France to Austria:
Edi, what do you have in mind?
Private message from France to England:
A quick question: how do you explain F Bal to Pitt and Hohn? Seems
anti-G to me.
I will lose StP, so how about if I order stp-nwy? If he moves, I take
nwy, if he doesn't I cut any supports he might give.
All this hinges on whether Germany expects your help or your enmity.
If he thinks you are his ally, you could take edi, or support stp-nwy,
for instance. I'll stand by until you hear from the other side.
Private message from England to France:
Wow, tough position.
Ok, here's what I think.
If I just take Den from Nth, you can support Kiel sufficiently, and
probably Munich too (unless they get together and guess lucky).
The problem with this is that if Germany gets into North Sea, my fleets are
out of position and cannot defend London next year. This would be very
unfortunate for me.
But, if you use your F Hel to help me from Bal into Den, you risk losing
Kiel to Germany, which is also not so good, since you do need a build at
this point. (I figure if Turkey kicks you from Stp, you can always disband
and rebuild.)
A complete analysis looks pretty daunting. My gut feeling is that I should
try to sail into Sweden, and use the F Nth to go Nth-Den. You could support
your A Kie from Hel and Mun, and the A Kie could support me into Den.
Then, if I don't get into Den, at least I'm still in Nth; and if I do get
in and also get Swe, I can build and protect myself. You look to be pretty
safe in Kiel.
The problem comes if I don't get into Swe. Then I might be stuck with F
Den, F Bal, which could be ugly if Germany happens to sail Nwy-Nth (but
this is unlikely, don't you think?). Or, worse for me, I might get neither
Scand center, and have to disband. But just about any move is risky for me.
My hunch is that Germany will not order Nwy-Swe, because if it goes your F
Stp has a retreat into Norway. He might try Nwy-Swe, Den-Swe, but that uses
up all of his attacking prospects and he has to think he could well lose
Denmark too.
The first thing I thought of was the simple Nth S Bal-Den. I think Nwg-Nth
is unlikely, but maybe Nwy-Nth? He would have to be worried that Nwy-Nth
would succeed, giving you a retreat Stp-Nwy when Hohn knocks you out of Stp.
What's your gut feeling?
I have asked Hohn to come up with a plan around Nth and tell me and Pitt
what to do. If he does that, I'll have a better idea of what my best plan
is. But I wrote to both Pitt and Hohn and haven't gotten an answer.
Gentle King Jamie
Thanks, Jamie, for the clarification on the origin on the NoNMR norm.)
Manus
Edi makes some good points.
Manus:
>I have been lurking rather than reading lately (actually,
>ever since the extended non-game discussions that began
>with us rooting for our favorite American pro football
>teams led to a spate of resignations by non-U.S.
>observers, but Edi's message caught my eye and I decided to break
>my silence.
Manus, you owe us all a right parenthesis. We'll be waiting for it.
> One difference(a major one) between the PBEM hobby and
> the postal hobby is that in the
> e-mail hobby, NoNMR is the default setting, and you actually
> have to do something special to ask for civil disorder.
> In the postal hobby, with game deadlines tied as they are
> to publishing deadlines, all games (that
> I know of) are run using the NMR rule.
>
> The reason I'm broadcasting is because this
> difference is not, I believe, a happenstance. The creator
> of the judge and we who have followed in the e-mail hobby
> have subscribed to the core belief that any actual
> person at the helm is better than none, and that replacing
> an abandoned player (no matter how long it may take) with
> another player is superior to CD'ing a power.
Yes indeed. But I want to register the historical point that it is Eric
Klien even more than Ken Lowe who is responsible for the NoNMR norm in Judge
play. And Nick Fitzpatrick is also due a healthy share of the
responsibility, for making a general rule (exceptions for exceptional cases)
of counting only NoNMR games in the Hall of Fame records.
-Jamie
I have been lurking rather than reading lately (actually, ever since the
extended non-game discussions that began with us rooting for our favorite
American pro football teams led to a spate of resignations by non-U.S.
observers, but Edi's message caught my eye and I decided to break my silence.
> The course of this game would have been dramatically different if
> there was a GM involved and all the late orders issued were in turn
> converted to civil disorders.
>
The judge has a NMR setting. This or any game could be run NMR so that
civil disorder takes effect when tardiness rears its head. One difference
(a major one) between the PBEM hobby and the postal hobby is that in the
e-mail hobby, NoNMR is the default setting, and you actually have to do
something special to ask for civil disorder. In the postal hobby, with
game deadlines tied as they are to publishing deadlines, all games (that
I know of) are run using the NMR rule.
The reason I'm broadcasting is because this difference is not, I believe,
a happenstance. The creator of the judge and we who have followed
in the e-mail hobby have subscribed to the core belief that any actual
person at the helm is better than none, and that replacing an abandoned
player (no matter how long it may take) with another player is superior to
CD'ing a power. As Edi said, the course of this game would have been
dramatically different if late powers had been declared in CD. The PBEM'er
thinks that the game would have been "worse," but of course the PBM'er
simply thinks that it would have been "normal" (putting words into PBM'ers'
mouths, aren't I?)
Manus
This is a demonstration game. We have all been assembled and agreed to
take part in it as a demonstration. Moving the game from a judge format to
a non-judge format would be demonstrating the wrong thing at this point in
time.
While it is certainly true that given email communication there is no
difference in the ability of players to communicate with one another
regardless if the gamne is run by a GM or a machine; however if there is to
a large scale rebirth of Diplomacy then it must be done with automation in
place so that the players are not subject to the problems of real life
judges. This recent disturbance is of really minor annoyance considering
the scope of possibilities with real life GM's.
Historically through the game Turkey and Germany have been perpetually late
in getting orders in and Italy has less than a spottless record on that
basis. The course of this game would have been dramatically different if
there was a GM involved and all the late orders issued were in turn
converted to civil disorders.
So let's not be so eager to turn our backs on the game's mechanical
awkwardness at this point. Lewt us demonstrate the good spirit to continue
and allow the coders of the Judge to know where and when they have to make
adjustments so that the expansion of the hobby can be done with Email
automation.
Edi Birsan
[email protected]
Web: www.mgames.com
Midnight Games
541-772-7872
Private message from England to France:
I don't really have much of an assessment, that will unfortunately have to
wait until Monday, when I have the position mapped and also have some time
to think about it.
I'm optimistic, though. I might start talking to Turkey about some deal
whereby he'd stab Italy and I'd prevent you from winning.
GKJ
Private message from England to Germany:
Sorry.
I actually figured the PROBABLE reason for your lack of reply was nothing
untoward but just the usual, but I wasn't sure.
I have to set up the position and everything. But could we try to get
something set this time? Even if it's just one of us suggesting something
and the other Okay-ing. And I would sort of like Hohn involved.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Turkey:
Hi. I'm back, but I won't really have my head back in the game until Monday.
Oh, Jim's away until Monday anyway.
Well, from what I've seen, I'm with Pitt on the question of ditching the
Judge. Actually, I don't entirely understand what the problem was. The main
thing seems to be that the Judge's downtime made AGT late. But I assume we
aren't just fussing about dedication points, are we?
What was the 'protocol error' that Cal got? Was it from the
indianapolis.in.us mailer daemon, or from the Judge, or what?
>Due to a power outage problem for one of our players (but NOT the one
>who didn't have preliminary orders in)
Mea culpa.
I was out of town yesterday but I wasn't worried about it because I could
have *sworn* that I saw a message saying Jim had changed the deadline to
tonight. I guess all those brain cells I killed in my misspent youth would
come in handy now, huh?
Orders are in now.
-Pitt
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as England in 'ghodstoo':
> >Unfortunately, the SYNTAX file is nowhere near as useful as it should be.
>
> That may be. However,
>
> >In particular, it does not explain abbreviations
>
> I believe it does, in fact.
Then what, for flippin hell, are the abbreviations for Tyrrhenian and
Tyrolia?
The "official" (in my mind and that of the 1976 IDA Handbook)
abbreviations are:
Tyrrhenian = tyn
Tyrolia = tyo
The Judge rejects both of these (at which point I resubmit
fully-spelled-out orders and tell the computer it is a stupid f*&^ing
machine. No, really. Ask Jim). d:})
Cal
Private message from England to France:
Holy cow.
So many centers changed hands, I can't even keep track.
I'll map it and look at the possibilities, then get back to you.
GKJ
(Scorecard: jb is our beloved Master; jd is my beloved self; Cal I will
leave indented by carets [and you know how painful that can be].)
jb: Unfortunately, the SYNTAX file is nowhere near as
jb: useful as it should be.
[...snip here by jd...]
jb: In particular, it does not explain abbreviations
jd: I believe it does, in fact.
>Then what, for flippin hell, are the abbreviations for Tyrrhenian and
>Tyrolia?
Cal, you snipped off the part of my reply to Jim in which I noted
that abbreviations for *provinces* are in the MAP file (as opposed
to the abbreviations for *commands*, which are in the SYNTAX
file--I showed you all some of those).
>The "official" (in my mind and that of the 1976 IDA Handbook)
>abbreviations are:
>
>Tyrrhenian = tyn
>Tyrolia = tyo
>
>The Judge rejects both of these
It doesn't. It accepts "tyn" as an abbreviation for "Tyrrhenian".
Here are two lines from the MAP file.
Tyrolia, l tyr tyl trl
Tyrrhenian Sea, w tys tyrr tyrrhenian tyn tyh
Notably, this file *cannot* be mistaken, as it is the one which the Judge
uses itself.
>(at which point I resubmit
>fully-spelled-out orders and tell the computer it is a stupid f*&^ing
>machine. No, really. Ask Jim). d:})
Hm, well, I will have to look up "f*&^ing" in the EXPLETIVES file.
-Jamie
Retreats
Private message from England to Turkey:
Holy smoke, witch.
This winter sees ten centers changing hands, including all three German
home centers!
Let's talk after the dust settles.
Gentle King Jamie
Two quick notes of response.... sorry, I'm a bit pressed for time this
week:
1) Deadlines: Sorry if there was any confusion. I did send explicit
messages out each time I changed the deadline. I did NOT originally
make the deadline Wednesday (even though I was out of town and out
of computer contact on Monday and Tuesday) because when I brought up
the issue, no one advocated the longer delay. With the warning that
I wouldn't be around to talk to, I went ahead and set it to Tuesday.
The record is clear, you can look it up ;-)
2) Map: Ugh, my fault. I thought map was about how to make maps out
of Judge output, since I don't do that and mostly work the map in
my head (years of hand adjudicating without maps), I've never looked
at that file. It does seem that tyo should be an abbreviation for
Tyrolia..... sorry, Cal, but now you know.
Get those retreats in, I'll bet we all can't wait to get to those
builds and removals! Exciting, eh?
Jim
Private message from England to France:
If that's what you want, I'll do the Big Draw Thing. But tell me, please,
whether you were sincere.
Myself, I would like to see at least one of them eliminated. For instance,
I now believe Austria could be removed without real danger. Germany
probably not -- unless Hohn pulls back, or Tunis can be secured by you and
Cal.
I am more than happy to have Cal share, though.
In any case, I won't do anything to spoil the scheme, and I'll send press
to afgi to the effect that I'll go along.
GKJ
Private message from France to Austria:
As I noted some time ago would happen, Turkey now has within his grasp 18
centers. I have not changed my view of France's prospects. I will share
in a draw. The only question was how large the draw would be. It seems to
me that, despite my effort to reduce the number by one, Germany must
survive. I am ready to let all bygones be forgotten. We must work
together to prevent Turkey's victory, then declare a draw.
What say you all?
If anyone has a list of abbreviational difficiencies, please tell all.
We do try to add reasonable ones ....
>It seems like a while since the broadcast forum has had some game
>commentary. So, here it goes:
>
>Turkey looks very strong.
Yes, but pork-bellies are down ...
Nick
It seems like a while since the broadcast forum has had some game
commentary. So, here it goes:
Turkey looks very strong.
Copyright 1997 by Rick Desper, all rights reserved.
>2) Map: Ugh, my fault. I thought map was about how to make maps out
>of Judge output, since I don't do that and mostly work the map in
>my head (years of hand adjudicating without maps), I've never looked
>at that file.
The MAP file contains the abbreviations, and also what amounts to a graph
of the board. It's a confusing-looking list. It lists all the adjacencies,
by sea and by land, of the various spaces. And it's what the Judge uses as
its board.
> It does seem that tyo should be an abbreviation for
>Tyrolia.....
I agree. I must have tried TYO about a dozen times, myself, in games past.
> Exciting, eh?
(That "eh" is so Cal can understand you, right? Or have you just spent too
much time in Woonsocket? [Sorry, in-joke.])
Yes. I think we are about to see ten centers change hands in one season;
and eight of them are home centers; and all three of Germany's home centers
are going to change hands. Unusual, eh?
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Germany:
Vengeance is mine.
Actually, I would have stuck with you and Hohn, but I never got a peep out
of you, so I felt my hand was forced.
The big picture has just changed very significantly, by the way. At least
so it seems to me. We might find all kinds of restructuring of alliances. I
know I'm keeping an open mind....
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to France:
Ok, I think I've got the big picture now.
First: you must, of course, retreat A Mun to Kiel, no question about that.
I can't use the build for it even if I keep it, and you need it to stay
even.
Second: All of a sudden Turkey is genuinely threatening to win. Do you see
this? He has 18 centers inside his ring! He owns 13, and there's Trieste,
Italy, and Tunis.
Were it not for this fact, I would suggest that you let the F Stp go and
build something at home to defend. But we may have to push Hohn out of Stp
sometime soon, don't you think? I dunno. Even if he stabs Italy all out
this year, he can't win right away, but he could strangle poor Cal by
taking Tri and Nap or Tun, and you'd have to try to hold Ven for Edi to
prevent Turkish victory in 1910. (I wish you'd sent that F Wes into Spain,
or the F MAO to leave MAO for the retreat. Water under the bridge.)
Germany will have no offensive capabilities. I half expect him to ditch
Munich and leave the three Scandinavian units. But even in that case I can
hold him off myself, and you'd pick up Munich, and then I think I could
slowly invade Scandinavia. So if you, or you and Cal, can hold onto enough
in the South, I think I can handle the northern waters.
Yeesh. If Cal doesn't wise up immediately, it looks pretty bad! I'm turning
up my propaganda machine to persuade Cal of the seriousness of the
situation.
What a season. Ten centers changed hands, including eight home centers, and
all three of Germany's home centers.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Austria:
You're teetering on the brink, eh?
I'm going to turn on the pressure and see if I can get Cal to turn on Hohn.
Thirteen centers and a breach in the stalemate line -- if that doesn't get
his attention, I think we can conclude he's a Turkish puppet!
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Italy:
Turkey goes to thirteen centers.
Worried yet?
Have you got this all worked out in your own mind, or do you want to talk
thing over? Remember I said earlier, about a game-year ago or so, that I
thought our fates would be tied together if we both made it to the endgame.
Well, I think we've officially made it to the endgame, and I think we'll
stand or lose together indeed. So I don't think I have any secrets to keep
from you anymore. And it might be wise to make sure we're in synch.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from England to Italy:
Ok by me, Napoleon.
Given my struggles, a share in a victory sounds great.
And, much as I enjoyed beating the hell out of Germany with you, my
bloodlust is satisfied. I would, though, like to hear something definite
from Pitt before I have to actually do anything friendly -- Pitt has been
awfully silent recently.
I have some tactical thoughts, but why don't we wait to see who's on board
first.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from France to England:
I'm sincere in the sense that I'll do all I can to prevent a Turkish win.
My main object, though, is to bring Italy around, at last. I agree with
you that we could possibly reduce the numbers a bit more.
Let's see how the proposal flies. We don't know yet what might open up.
Private message from France to England:
Quite a turn. I suspected Germany might sneak into Munich while I took
Berlin. He probably did not figure on that happening. If I were he, I'd
keep A Mun for the diplomatic leverage. It'll be interesting.
I think I have to disband stp and build f bre. Otherwise, T and I will
break through.
Surely, Italy can now see the situation. I warned him this would happen,
but he was convinced he could play the balancer in the Med. Well, maybe
he's right, which means a draw is in the offing.
Oops, sorry guys. Had the late game in my baseball league last night
and went to bed when I got home. Forgot to send the retreats in...
Cal the Despicable
Adjustments
Private message from England to France:
Not a word from anyone but you yet.
Have you heard any reply to your declaration of intent to form a huge alliance?
GKJ
Jim,
>Unfortunately, the SYNTAX file is nowhere near as useful as it should be.
That may be. However,
>In particular, it does not explain abbreviations
I believe it does, in fact.
Here are some abbreviations that it explains:
= "army", "a", "fleet", "f" or .
= Power name or abbreviation of two or more characters.
= "h", "hold", "holds", "stand", "stands".
= "-", "->", "m", "move", "moves", "move to", "moves to".
= "s", "support", "supports".
= "c", "convoy", "convoys".
= "p", "proxy", "proxy to".
= "d", "disband".
= "b", "build" or .
= "r", "remove", "d", "disband" or .
= "w", "waive".
So there, for example, it has explained that "a" can abbreviate "army", "-"
can abbreviate "moves to", and so forth.
Maybe you had certain other abbreviations in mind? Abbreviations for
provinces? Those are given in another file (MAP).
> What I most would like to
>have is the Judge to send me all ORDER submissions in addition to all
>PRESS.
Actually, I think this would not be so good, myself.
It would essentially eliminate the stratagem of entering a 'deliberately
incorrect' order, so as to have an excuse to hand your 'ally' later. That
might be all right for a Newbie game, where we can give up some recherche
tactics, but would it be a good idea for a demo game like ghodstoo?
>What were some of the usual introductory features of regular Newbie
>games? I thought I was following them: reading all press as it goes
>and trying to troubleshoot problems, start and feed broadcast discussions
>on how the Judge works (like this one), and repeatedly mention that I'm
>available to help with problems (you guys actually do ask me for things
>sometimes, but not as much as you could).
Well, I send out some broadcasts with examples of various kinds, including
press and convoy orders. (I agree with you that the help files do not have
enough examples, and especially the formal sort of explanation the syntax
file gives can turn off non-programmers fast!) I ask players to try out
press commands before the game starts, while I 'watch'. I go over the
various deadline parameters and other flags in broadcasts. Quite a lot of
other things, I think -- I'd have to check my logs.
Gentle King (and elsewhere gm-to-newbies) Jamie
Private message from France to Germany:
You are in a tough spot, so I would not presume to advise you on disbands.
My offer is sincere, and I hope you would act on that basis, but I will
understand if you don't. The truth is, if we don't get it together soon,
this thing is over anyway.
John
Private message from France to England:
I will be out of town from first thing Monday morning (tomorrow) for about
a week. I need an indefinite (but not too long) extension until I return.
I'll have no email access. I will inform Jim as soon as I am back.
John, France
Private message from England to Turkey:
Witch,
In case you're wondering, the press from me that Italy forwarded was part of
something I wrote in reply to a general note from France to everybody except
you. France offers a share of the draw to whomever will help him prevent you
from winning.
Why Italy decided to annoy me by forwarding that particular piece of mail,
and showing me that he was forwarding it, I don't know. I guess there's a
fair chance it was just an oversight.
My thinking is not too far from Cal's, in fact. Not much of a revelation to you.
There aren't many secrets left in a position like this one. Oh, maybe I
still have one left....
Other, Considerably Smaller but at least now Growing,
Witch
Private message from England to Italy:
>Comments?
Yes.
Comment 1.
I sent some press to iagf, you forwarded it to Turkey. Please don't do that.
I don't forward your press.
Comment 2.
I agree that there is no reason Austria ought to share.
I also agree that Pitt should be dropped if it's possible. I am not at all
sure it's possible, but I'll work on it. I think France will stop attacking
this year, and will also support Austria in Venice, and wait to see what
happens.
Comment 3.
You could lose two of your four centers to Turkey next year if you aren't
very careful. Maybe Turkey still wouldn't win. But I bet you he tries,
especially now that you have informed him that everyone else is getting
together to stop him.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Italy to England:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Italy in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Turkey goes to thirteen centers.
>
> Worried yet?
Not particularly, but that isn't to say I'm ignoring a possible threat
of Hohn trying for 18 centres. Right now, I don't think he is likely to
try the stab as the odds are just not good enough for him. I have every
intention (and I've told France this) of NOT straying too far from my
home centres so as to maintain the status quo. Now that you're at
three, you have a say in that status quo as well.
> Have you got this all worked out in your own mind, or do you want to talk
> thing over?
Not sure what there is to talk about, although I'll surely listen. All
I see as our parts at this point in the game is to make sure neither F
nor T win outright. A desirable side effect of this should be to
involve you and I in the draw.
> Remember I said earlier, about a game-year ago or so, that I
> thought our fates would be tied together if we both made it to the endgame.
> Well, I think we've officially made it to the endgame, and I think we'll
> stand or lose together indeed. So I don't think I have any secrets to keep
> from you anymore. And it might be wise to make sure we're in synch.
I think we have to be part of a draw unless we get careless or (and this
is unlikely) John & Hohn, in deciding to go for a 17-17 draw, wipe us
out.
Comments?
Cal
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Message from [email protected] as England to Austria, France, Germany and
> Italy in 'ghodstoo':
>
> Ok by me, Napoleon.
>
> Given my struggles, a share in a victory sounds great.
>
> And, much as I enjoyed beating the hell out of Germany with you, my
> bloodlust is satisfied. I would, though, like to hear something definite
> from Pitt before I have to actually do anything friendly -- Pitt has been
> awfully silent recently.
>
> I have some tactical thoughts, but why don't we wait to see who's on board
> first.
I'm only sending this to the four of us as I don't feel the draw should
be any larger than EFIT. Edi won't be around much longer and I just
don't think Pitt has played well enough to be in on the end result. I'm
not fussy on such a large draw, but it's probably an accurate assessment
of this game.
Comments?
Cal
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Message from [email protected] as France to Germany, Italy, England and
> Austria in 'ghodstoo':
>
> As I noted some time ago would happen, Turkey now has within his grasp 18
> centers. I have not changed my view of France's prospects. I will share
> in a draw. The only question was how large the draw would be. It seems to
> me that, despite my effort to reduce the number by one, Germany must
> survive. I am ready to let all bygones be forgotten. We must work
> together to prevent Turkey's victory, then declare a draw.
>
> What say you all?
I take it you're calling for a 5-way draw?
Cal
Private message from England to Italy:
>Given all the sweetness and nice talk from France and
>England, I suppose I should consult with my putative
>new-found allies regarding my disbands.
>Any suggestions?
I'd keep the units in the centers, myself.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Italy to Turkey:
> Broadcast message from [email protected] as England in 'ghodstoo':
> >The "official" (in my mind and that of the 1976 IDA Handbook)
> >abbreviations are:
> >
> >Tyrrhenian = tyn
> >Tyrolia = tyo
> >
> >The Judge rejects both of these
>
> It doesn't. It accepts "tyn" as an abbreviation for "Tyrrhenian".
I'm not qualified to argue with you, but I DO know that it has always
rejected "tyn". That's the abbreviation I always use and it always gets
sent back to me.
> Here are two lines from the MAP file.
>
> Tyrolia, l tyr tyl trl
> Tyrrhenian Sea, w tys tyrr tyrrhenian tyn tyh
>
> Notably, this file *cannot* be mistaken, as it is the one which the Judge
> uses itself.
Again, I'm not going to argue, but I know what I've been getting.
Cal
Private message from Germany to England:
Given all the sweetness and nice talk from France and England, I suppose I
should consult with my putative new-found allies regarding my disbands.
Any suggestions?
KaiserPitt
Private message from England to Italy:
>You enjoyed it way too much. If you damn Anglicans
>weren't such heathens, I'd get the Pope to excommunicate
>you or something (what do you say, Cal?).
You'd "get the Pope" to do something like that, would you? I didn't realize
that Luther had managed to subordinate St. Peter even before God! ("Pope
Calvin"! Talk about heterodoxy.)
His Holiness taking orders from Huns now... infidels with scimitars running
rampant helter skelter through the Continent's capitals... Lord, have you
forsaken us???
Gentle King Jamie, C of E, of course.
Private message from England to Germany:
Yeah, my aim is about the same as yours. And so is Cal's, for that matter. I
guess the main difference is that I could just sit on the sidelines and
demand a draw, while you and Italy are each rather more in the way of the
imperialists. Anyway, at this point I am certainly going to stick with
France, since Turkey is the threat to win, and France seems to have no
interest in eliminating me at all. (I mean, he doesn't seem to be interested
in it.)
I don't believe that France really expects Austria to share in a draw. But I
think he does expect it to be a five-way. I know this: *any* scheme that
definitely stops Turkey France will prefer to any scheme that gives Turkey a
chance to win.
Now that France has disbanded that fleet, I think tactics are simple, if we
are both serious about drawing. Uh, wait, you have to disband two. Ok, well,
obviously you are going to keep the A Mun. Let's go get Stp, then, with your
two Scand units plus one of mine. Or two of mine, if you'd rather. Maybe I
could do F Den-Bal-Bot and F Edi-Nwg-Bar.
I don't have my map in front of me. But if something along those lines
sounds all right, I'll look over the details on Monday.
The other possibility is for you and me just to sit and do nothing. I might
send a fleet to help out around the MAO. But I think it's really going to be
up to Italy and France, and to a lesser extent to you (your A Mun) to do the
Turkeystopping.
Gentle King Jamie
Private message from Germany to Italy:
>Message from [email protected] as England to Austria, France, Germany
and
>Italy in 'ghodstoo':
>
>Ok by me, Napoleon.
I should complain? No way. I'm on board if France is serious about German
survival and share in a draw.
>And, much as I enjoyed beating the hell out of Germany with you, my
>bloodlust is satisfied.
You enjoyed it way too much. If you damn Anglicans weren't such heathens,
I'd get the Pope to excommunicate you or something (what do you say, Cal?).
>I have some tactical thoughts, but why don't we wait to see who's on board
>first.
I'm hear. Tactic away.
KaiserPitt (fading rapidly)
Private message from Germany to Austria:
>I am ready to let all bygones be forgotten. We must work
>together to prevent Turkey's victory, then declare a draw.
>
>What say you all?
I say Yea. (Providing you show me a plan that isn't just a more creative
way for Germany to commit suicide...though I'm laying in a stock of suicide
just in case.)
KaiserPitt (contemplating better times)
Private message from Germany to England:
>Vengeance is mine.
It certainly is...my congratulations.
>Actually, I would have stuck with you and Hohn, but I never got a peep out
>of you, so I felt my hand was forced.
Well, I can only say that it appeared to me that you were already firmly in
France's camp and I didn't think that I had anything useful to offer.
Frankly, I can't imagine you would have foregone the attacks under any
circumstances I could have offered.
>The big picture has just changed very significantly, by the way. At least
>so it seems to me. We might find all kinds of restructuring of alliances. I
>know I'm keeping an open mind....
That's good to hear. I'm planning on selling my soul to whichever of the
big kids on the block who can convince me they will allow me to survive for
a draw. Alternatvely, if neither are interested, then I'll try to sway one
or the other by working towards a solo for the other.
What about you?
KaiserPitt (a shadow of his former self)